The classic romantic beethoven

[Ahmad]

As you all know, Beethoven began composing influenced by Hyden and Mozart and that was his early stage (clasical),gradually he began to make his own style and move toward romanticism establishing this style that compoers of the romantic period like chopin continued on....looking at his 32 piano sonatas ..how do you suggest that change...?

[lysander]

The classical and romantic aspects in Beethoven's music are part of a much broader movement in European history.
A brilliant lecture I recently listened to on CD by the great English philosopher, Sir Isaiah Berlin points up the massive and cataclysmic collisions that resulted from these two forces in philosophy, art, politics and music, and that continues to have critical effects in the modern world.
Classicism, basically posits a relationship between observer and observed and maintains that there is an external world that man is subject to and whose rules he must submit to in order to attain the good life.
The whole of classicism is about finding virtuous models from the past to copy and emmulate in one's life.
Romanticism is really this fantastic, horrifying even supernatural force of nature or within man that rejects all the dead wood of classicism and its sterility, replacing it with a numinous mysterious sense of oneness with everything in the universe.
There is no observer and observed here, we are all part of everything and everything is part of us.
Berlin cannot really account for in my view where this fantastic, almost otherworldly metaphysics sprang from, and he locates it to a number of discontented educated and under employed public officials in 18th century Prussia.
Even today it is staggering to think just how different romanticism is from classicism and just where it all came from is really a mystery. On music Schopenhauer said, 'the composer reveals to us the intimate essence of the world, he is the interpreter of the profoundest wisdom, speaking a language which reason cannot understand'
Romanticism is not chaos however, and everyone doing there own thing, one only has to think of the mathematical harmonies of Beethoven to realize how diciplined the great romantics were.
The greatest romantic came from the land of the most unromantic people, the English Lord Byron. Beethoven would have instinctively empathized with Byron's romantic sensibility, even if he would haved detested his debauched lifestyle, and Byron's hero, Manfred would have struck a deep chord with Beethoven.

" Apart he stalked in joyless reverie,
with pleasure drugged he almost longed for woe,
and e'en for change of scene would seek the shades below,
there was in him a vital scorn of all
He stood a stranger in this breathing world
So much he soared beyond or sunk beneath
The men with whom he felt condemned to breathe"


Romanticism opens up vast new abysses's of the mind. We suddenly seem to be plunged into a world where there is no classical sense of security, nothing to hide behind and we are at one with the sublime awfulness of the universe.
I think really what Beethoven is doing is using the classical form to promote a romantic agenda as it were, but only his greatness could forge a new musical language that fuses both, and seems to have a foot in both camps.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited May 11, 2003).]

[Ahmad]

Hi lysander
I enjoyed reading the analysis of romanticism ..Where do you locate Beethoven 's most famous piano sonatas (Moonlight,Pathetique,appassionata,)in his gradual movement from classicsm to romanticism (or romaticism made by classical rules as you said)..?

[This message has been edited by Ahmad (edited May 11, 2003).]

[lysander]

In the early Beethoven there is a development from the rhetorically decorative through Romantic to the tragic. The stages: first movement of the ' Pathetique', Finale of the 'Moonlight' Sonata, first movement of opus 30,2 (which has much more in common with the latter, especially in the modulation in the development section), Op. 31,1 (both romantic and tragic) up to 'Kreutzer' Sonata as the first purely tragic symphonic type.
Towards the end of the so-called first period of Beethoven's work of Romantic element emerges more and more strongly ('Spring' Sonata [op.24] and the Romantic Lied, 'Moonlight' Sonata, Larghetto of the Second Symphony, and so on).
The transition to the middle period is effected on one hand by the art of the subjective-Romantic element, and on the other by the overcoming of this element through objectification. The crucial importance of the D minor Piano Sonata [Op.31,2].

To shed a bit more light on this fascinating subject, I have consulted - Theodor W. Adorno's book on Beethoven from where I have quoted the above by way of answering your query.


I would be interested to know what other members views are.

Lysander.

[John Rasmussen]

The seeds of LvB's romanticism are there from the first. Look at the score to a Mozart symphony: dynamics are just piano and forte. Now look at the late Haydn: a little more contrast, some pp's and ff's (and even a very occasional fff!). Now look at the score to Beethoven's First Symphony. Molto Adagio! Sforzandos all over the place! The most common dynamics are pp and ff! Sure, the form is classical, but his intensity and power is already latent.

For me, Beethoven's romanticism explodes into full power with the first chord of the Pathetique sonata. Was there anything like that opening before? I think not!

[orpheus]

I am deeply sceptical about this idea that Beethoven was bridging the gap between classicism and romanticism. This is the view that looks at history as something organised, directed, goal-orientated or mapped-out in advance - which of course it isn't. It sort of assumes that Beethoven, or any artist for that matter, already knew what "romaticism" would be and then had to fulfil some sort of prophecy, destiny or whatever, and find the path to it. Although Beethoven obviously had a vision that music could be bigger and better than it was - as any artist has about his/her art - when he started composing, in the end he had to write one piece (or a few pieces) after another, and he approached each one as something knew and exciting.

History is not made up of a neat succession of artistic movements, bridged by transitional individuals. History is rather a succession of these individuals, and historians sometimes find it useful to retrospectively box together into these artistic categories.

A good example might be to think of a frog. A frog didn't evolve from an amoeba into a frog in order to bridge the gap - as an amphibian - between fish and mammals. It was just useful, through natural selection, to be a frog at that time. Now you can look back in retrospect and say, "oh this creature displays charcteristics similar to mammals and so was anticipating mammals". But you'd be wrong, just as it would be a mistake to say Beethoven was anticipating romaticism or whatever. Beethoven may have influenced later composers, but it is impossible for him to have anticipated them.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Ahmad:
As you all know, Beethoven began composing influenced by Hyden and Mozart and that was his early stage (clasical),gradually he began to make his own style and move toward romanticism establishing this style that compoers of the romantic period like chopin continued on....looking at his 32 piano sonatas ..how do you suggest that change...?

I don't really except the premise! Chopin did not continue on from Beethoven - indeed Chopin had little sympathy for Beethoven's music, he was far more in tune with Mozart as was Tchaikovsky. 'The change' is the other way round - there are more traits of romanticism in Beethoven's early sonatas (especially the slow movements) which were influenced by Clementi, Dussek and C.P.E.Bach than the late works.

We have discussed this topic at some length here before and I keep coming back to the argument that if you want to find the seeds of romanticism in music look at Weber, Hummel, Spohr, Field, Schubert, Italian opera and going further back Bach. Beethoven was a classical composer who expanded the classical forms to new dimensions - after all, those composers such as Brahms who continued writing Symphonies, sonatas and chamber music were considered old fashioned. The dominant romantic composer of the 19th century was Wagner whose output (save some very early pieces and the outstanding Siegfried Idyll) was solely opera - where then is the influence of Fidelio on Rienzi or Tristan?

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'Man know thyself'

[Marta]

Music is a subjective art 100%, the composer deals with sound to convey something that can't be found in the objective world.
Sure, he uses form, rhythm, harmony and melody as the elements for his works, but what he wants to say with those elements IS always subjective. The purpose of music is to convey emotions, feelings, moods....all subjective.
We can discuss scholastically how those elements (form,harmony,melody,rhythm) are treated in the classic or romantic periods, but the subjective element of music will be present in both.
A painter during the classical period was concern in copying to perfection the outside world, a composer to convey emotions, the same as today.
This is why in my opinion, we find romanticism in any great work of music.....at least I do.


Marta

[Peter]

Originally posted by Marta:
Music is a subjective art 100%, the composer deals with sound to convey something that can't be found in the objective world.
Sure, he uses form, rhythm, harmony and melody as the elements for his works, but what he wants to say with those elements IS always subjective. The purpose of music is to convey emotions, feelings, moods....all subjective.
We can discuss scholastically how those elements (form,harmony,melody,rhythm) are treated in the classic or romantic periods, but the subjective element of music will be present in both.
A painter during the classical period was concern in copying to perfection the outside world, a composer to convey emotions, the same as today.
This is why in my opinion, we find romanticism in any great work of music.....at least I do.


Marta

Absolutely Marta - after all in their day Mozart and Haydn were referred to as 'romantic' composers. It is really a pity that we have these labels, after all when most people talk about 'classical music' they are usually using it as a general term to cover western music over a period of many centuries. My previous reply was the academic response to this question and yours is the musical!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Marta:

A painter during the classical period was concern in copying to perfection the outside world, a composer to convey emotions, the same as today.
This is why in my opinion, we find romanticism in any great work of music.....at least I do.

Marta

I do not connect Beethoven in any way with the term Romanticism as I see it. We can argue all day about the semantics of the word 'Romantic' itself, so instead it just look to the music, and in comparison with those composers who are generally regarded as Romantic without dispute, Beethoven sounds nothing like them to my ears. Even within his own contemporary scene Beethoven's musical path became increasingly unique.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I do not connect Beethoven in any way with the term Romanticism as I see it. We can argue all day about the semantics of the word 'Romantic' itself, so instead it just look to the music, and in comparison with those composers who are generally regarded as Romantic without dispute, Beethoven sounds nothing like them to my ears. Even within his own contemporary scene Beethoven's musical path became increasingly unique.

Yes but Bach sounds nothing like Handel, Mozart nothing like Haydn, Chopin nothing like liszt - it is a sign of a great composer that he sounds like no one else and has a unique voice.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but Bach sounds nothing like Handel, Mozart nothing like Haydn, Chopin nothing like liszt - it is a sign of a great composer that he sounds like no one else and has a unique voice.

But none of these is a musical island Peter.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

In the many books I've read on Beethoven this subject always seems to be split right down the middle. Some authors see him as strictly classical with classical forms and others as a romantic-classical or even just plain romantic! Musically he seems to be strictly classical, but some of his ideas seem to be somewhat belonging to the romantic era, am I right??

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Marta]

Originally posted by Rod:
But none of these is a musical island Peter.

Hi Rod.

Of course, nothing in this world is isolated, everything is interconnected.
But what Peter wanted to express is that every great composer uses the elements of music (form, harmony, rhythm, melody) to express their subjective artistic creativity in a very personal and individualistic way, and also each had different things to express according to their personal inner world. I think this is why even the great composers from the same period don't sound the same. Each is unique.

Marta

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by orpheus:
I am deeply sceptical about this idea that Beethoven was bridging the gap between classicism and romanticism. This is the view that looks at history as something organised, directed, goal-orientated or mapped-out in advance - which of course it isn't. It sort of assumes that Beethoven, or any artist for that matter, already knew what "romaticism" would be and then had to fulfil some sort of prophecy, destiny or whatever, and find the path to it.

But Romanticism was late getting to music and was lready pretty well-established in German and English literature by the time Beethoven matured (say, around 1803), and needed only to be transplanted to music and painting. Beethoven need not have anticipated anything in terms of the general esthetic, philosophical and emotional environment, which was already Romantic among the younger people by the time he sat down to write the Eroica.