Authentic page op.1 finales from nos2 & 3

[Peter]

Now available to members on the authentic instruments page - please remember there are two mp3s to download this time!
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/authentic.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Listening to the first one, I feel that I really like the fast runs on fortepiano, but would prefer the slightly slower phrases on modern piano. Is this possibly why we have not heard any adagios in this new series?

(Don't gnash teeth, Rod, I am also driving people crazy on other music websites.)

[Joy]

Very nice. I enjoyed both of these. Also an interesting read about Haydn advising Beethoven not to publish the last of them and Beethoven considered these the best.
(Also noticed the new artwork of Beethoven's image in the background. Very nice)!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited May 06, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Very nice. I enjoyed both of these. Also an interesting read about Haydn advising Beethoven not to publish the last of them and Beethoven considered these the best.
(Also noticed the new artwork of Beethoven's image in the background. Very nice)!

Yes but the story that Beethoven thought Haydn was jealous is ridiculous - Haydn was internationally renowned, at the height of his fame, and was such a modest man that he willingly ackowledged Mozart his superior and tried to include him on his England tour. Haydn's motive was purely in consideration of what he deemed Beethoven's best interests.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Listening to the first one, I feel that I really like the fast runs on fortepiano, but would prefer the slightly slower phrases on modern piano. Is this possibly why we have not heard any adagios in this new series?

(Don't gnash teeth, Rod, I am also driving people crazy on other music websites.)

An interesting observation (though the reason for lack of adagios is available webspace) - the old fortepianos could not sustain a long note for the same length of time as a modern piano.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

The absence of slow movements certainly has nothing to do with the nature of the fortepiano. In fact that of no2 is probably the best rendition on CD I've ever heard but is over 10 minutes long and it would mean using only the scherzo for no3 due to web space limitations. You guys take your pick!

It is true that the more brilliant passages have a more pronounced difference relative to the modern piano than the soft legato movements.

In future I'll provide some slow movements as space allows. Old campaigners will remember when I uploaded that of the 3rd Concerto on period instruments and nobody complained.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but the story that Beethoven thought Haydn was jealous is ridiculous - Haydn was internationally renowned, at the height of his fame, and was such a modest man that he willingly ackowledged Mozart his superior and tried to include him on his England tour. Haydn's motive was purely in consideration of what he deemed Beethoven's best interests.

Well, whatever Haydn's motivation, Beethoven did not heed Haydn's advice, that is for sure. Bear in mind Beethoven had a suspicious streak in him regardless.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:

The absence of slow movements certainly has nothing to do with the nature of the fortepiano. In fact that of no2 is probably the best rendition on CD I've ever heard but is over 10 minutes long and it would mean using only the scherzo for no3 due to web space limitations. You guys take your pick!

It is true that the more brilliant passages have a more pronounced difference relative to the modern piano than the soft legato movements.

In future I'll provide some slow movements as space allows. Old campaigners will remember when I uploaded that of the 3rd Concerto on period instruments and nobody complained.

I for one would willingly forgo two allegros to hear an adagio. I would like to hear how the fortepiano handles passages where sustained notes are needed. One of my personal favorites, as I've mentioned before, is 'Les Adieux', Sonata No. 26. The slow movement there is one of the most beautiful and unearthly Beethoven ever wrote, IMO. I would be quite interested in hearing it, or some other comparably beautiful adagio, on fortepiano.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I for one would willingly forgo two allegros to hear an adagio. I would like to hear how the fortepiano handles passages where sustained notes are needed. One of my personal favorites, as I've mentioned before, is 'Les Adieux', Sonata No. 26. The slow movement there is one of the most beautiful and unearthly Beethoven ever wrote, IMO. I would be quite interested in hearing it, or some other comparably beautiful adagio, on fortepiano.

What's wrong with the allegros when they are as good as these?! I suppose I could stick in an adagio with the next opus (op2).


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
What's wrong with the allegros when they are as good as these?! I suppose I could stick in an adagio with the next opus (op2).

Nothing at all wrong with the allegros. They're great. The fortepiano sounds indeed as if they were made for it, and it for them. I'd like to hear if the same feeling of rightness holds up with the adagios, which may suggest a more sustained tone in some passages. You probably see what I'm getting at here, that the modern piano may still have some justification in Beethoven, and it may be more apt in the adagios of the middle and later piano works than in the earlier.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 07, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

I for one would willingly forgo two allegros to hear an adagio.

I'll see your two allegros and raise you an adagio!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited May 07, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Nothing at all wrong with the allegros. They're great. The fortepiano sounds indeed as if they were made for it, and it for them. I'd like to hear if the same feeling of rightness holds up with the adagios, which may suggest a more sustained tone in some passages. You probably see what I'm getting at here, that the modern piano may still have some justification in Beethoven, and it may be more apt in the adagios of the middle and later piano works than in the earlier.

I believe the level of sustain possible on a modern piano is not particulalry necessary for Beethoven adagios, on the contrary one could see the enhanced sustain as something that could lead the performer down the wrong alley, so to speak. Czerny observed watching Beethoven play that with the slow movements the tempo did not seem to deviate greatly from the remainder, the manner of playing was the differentiating factor. The thinner tone allows more transparency at quicker speeds, therefore although quicker by the clock, the effect may not seem rushed. Making the themes sing is the key, sometimes they seem virtually lost altogether on overly broad modern performances (eg that of op106).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Andrea]

Beide Werke sind "Musik zu meinen Ohren." Danke Rod.