Beethoven's next opera

[Chaszz]

Those who dislike "what would have happened if..."-type threads are excused from this topic.

You are an aristocrat from Bohemia who is fulfilling a long-cherished dream by visiting Beethoven in 1817 and commissioning a new opera. To prevent the frustrations he had with Fidelio, you will renumerate him with an ample living allowance and will finance all performances of an initial run in Vienna, also letting him retain the copyright and publishing rights.

He is not composing much, dogged by the long-drawn out affair with his nephew Karl. But he agrees gruffly to your proposal, except for one condition: you must choose the subject. He is too distracted to do so, and demands a finished libretto as a beginning point. (I know this would be uncharacteristic of B., but for the sake of the topic, let's suspend disbelief).

You can hire a competent librettist later. In the meantime, what dramatic subject from history or fable do you choose for the Master's work? And why?


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 06, 2003).]

[Rutradelusasa]

Wasn't he planning to make an Opera about Macbeth? I remember reading something about it but I can't remember where.

If he would make such an Opera, it would be fabulous, a great story in the hands of a great composer, the perfect combination.

[lysander]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Wasn't he planning to make an Opera about Macbeth? I remember reading something about it but I can't remember where.

If he would make such an Opera, it would be fabulous, a great story in the hands of a great composer, the perfect combination.

Beethoven planned to collaborate with Joseph von collin in a new Opera - Macbeth or Bradamante, neither came to fruition.
I believe that sketches were written for Macbeth for the opening of the witches chorus.

Joseph von Collins wrote a play on Coriolanus.

Sorry if this information is a bit sketchy, but I hope someone will enlighten me more.

[lysander]

I believe that Beethoven would have been strongly attracted to Shakespeare's -JULIUS CAESAR - as a suitable subject for an Opera.
He would probably regard Caesar as representing the State personified, and it would be particularly irksome for Beethoven to contemplate a man who thought he was a God, like Caesar who simply wanted willing slaves to serve him.
Beethoven would idealize the noble and heroic Brutus and see him as the representative of all mans ancient 'freedoms' that Caesar was busy destroying.
Beethoven would also see Brutus as a tragic figure who is provoked into killing his patron by the 'noblest' of motives, but who cannot escape from the conventional thinking of his class and he ultimately sacrifices himself on the alter of 'freedom' and 'futurity'.

Beethoven, I am sure would be thrilled to write an Opera and engage with the themes in Julius Caesar. He would love the stark contrast between two warring individuals and the tragedy involved in their conflict, given that they also both loved one another.
He would also be thrilled with Caesar and Brutus as representative types of humanity, ie. Caesar as the great man of destiny and 'enslaver' of mankind. Brutus as the 'Liberator' who yet contains within himself his own tragic laws.
Both are also ofcourse, representatives of distinct historical movements that were felt in Beethoven's time, ie. Napoleon and to the wider demands in Europe for political emancipation.

Lysander.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by lysander:


I believe that Beethoven would have been strongly attracted to Shakespeare's -JULIUS CAESAR - as a suitable subject for an Opera.
He would probably regard Caesar as representing the State personified, and it would be particularly irksome for Beethoven to contemplate a man who thought he was a God, like Caesar who simply wanted willing slaves to serve him.
Beethoven would idealize the noble and heroic Brutus and see him as the representative of all mans ancient 'freedoms' that Caesar was busy destroying.
Beethoven would also see Brutus as a tragic figure who is provoked into killing his patron by the 'noblest' of motives, but who cannot escape from the conventional thinking of his class and he ultimately sacrifices himself on the alter of 'freedom' and 'futurity'.

Beethoven, I am sure would be thrilled to write an Opera and engage with the themes in Julius Caesar. He would love the stark contrast between two warring individuals and the tragedy involved in their conflict, given that they also both loved one another.
He would also be thrilled with Caesar and Brutus as representative types of humanity, ie. Caesar as the great man of destiny and 'enslaver' of mankind. Brutus as the 'Liberator' who yet contains within himself his own tragic laws.
Both are also ofcourse, representatives of distinct historical movements that were felt in Beethoven's time, ie. Napoleon and to the wider demands in Europe for political emancipation.

Lysander.

Lysander, this is wonderful. A different take from Shakespeare. Please write it!

Chaszz

[lysander]

Thankyou Chaszz,
I am pleased that you appreciate Shakespeare.

I agree that my 'potential' opera is a different take on Shakespeare, because I have rather Beethovenized Julius Caesar.

(All royalties to me please, seeing that I am Beethoven's representative on earth!).

I think we shall have Herr Wagner as the Librettist, and we can call it - ' Der Ring Des Romanus' - Or, 'Niebelungen for beginners'!


The only point I would make by way of a slight caveat is that Shakespeare's actual drama Julius Caesar, is infinitely more complex and sophisticated than my bald outline gives, for instance, Shakespeare I think, is rather in awe of Caesar and his attainments and abilities, even given the fact that his ambition directly brought about the deaths of millions.
Ofcourse the obvious parallel is with Napoleon, and I have always thought that Beethoven continued to be drawn to this figure of a genius who stood apart from society - much like Beethoven himself.

Beethoven could not tolerate Napoleon if he became an autocrat like Julius Caesar.
In his study I believe, Beethoven had on his writing table a small bust of Brutus - Caesar's assissin.

[Joy]

Originally posted by lysander:
[B] Beethoven planned to collaborate with Joseph von collin in a new Opera - Macbeth or Bradamante, neither came to fruition.
I believe that sketches were written for Macbeth for the opening of the witches chorus.

[B]

Isn't this what the Ghost Trio was written for? (I'm not sure).

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Isn't this what the Ghost Trio was written for? (I'm not sure).

Joy,
That was a brilliant supposition. However, Op 70 #1 "The Ghost Trio" was written in 1808, and the sketches for the opera date from 1810. But really, I love the concept. Another case of Beethoven's programmatic music leading us astray, I fear. ;-))
Best Regards, Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
That was a brilliant supposition. However, Op 70 #1 "The Ghost Trio" was written in 1808, and the sketches for the opera date from 1810. But really, I love the concept. Another case of Beethoven's programmatic music leading us astray, I fear. ;-))
Best Regards, Gurn

I was under the impression that sketches for Macbeth were also made in 1808 and some of this material was later used in the trio.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
I was under the impression that sketches for Macbeth were also made in 1808 and some of this material was later used in the trio.

Peter,
This may well be true, but I can find no documentation for any sketches before 1810. I have not seen any allegation previously that the Ghost in the trio was related to Macbeth. I shall continue looking and perhaps find some substantiation.
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Further research indicates that sketches for the Largo of Op 70 #1 appear in the same notebook as sketches for the overture to the planned Macbeth project, which has led many, whether rightly or wrongly, to connect the 2. Czerny felt that the Largo was related to Hamlet, another of B's interests. Some sketching of the Macbeth idea began as early as 1808, so obviously B was thinking already about this before Collin's approach.
Regards, Gurn

[lysander]

Just to confirm Gurn's further research, Beethoven's sketch of Macbeth survives on the leaf with the sketches for the witches chorus, there are also sketches for the slow movement, Largo of the Ghost trio, Opus 70. no.1.

The first movement hammers out the opening theme in full unision with piano, violin and cello, creating a 'spookish, foreboding' feel to it, and towards the end, puts me in mind of the witches hammering on the door of fate.
It is a brilliant piece, I love it.

I love Beethoven's piano trios, I have the box set by the Beaux Arts Trio. I have been listening to them today.


I have also discovered that a sketchbook in the BRITISH LIBRARY contains Beethoven sketches for Opus 70. no.1. known as the 'Geistertrio'.
According to some scholars, themes in the Trio were intended for use with the ghost and the witches in Macbeth.

Lysander.

[mspaceray]

I thought that Christ on the Mount of Olives sounded like opera it was so dramatic you could hear the action in the music.

[Roehre]

You are an aristocrat from Bohemia who is fulfilling a long-cherished dream by visiting Beethoven in 1817 and commissioning a new opera. (...) what dramatic subject from history or fable do you choose for the Master's work? And why?[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 06, 2003).]

I'd try to get him interested again in the sujets he contemplated during his career, just to have another Beethoven opera:

Armida
Die Befreyung von Jerusalem (Jerusalem's liberation) (possibly oratorio)
Das Weltgericht (The world's Court) (ditto)
Die Passionen (Passions) (ditto)
Der Sieg des Kreuzes (The Victory of the Cross)(as an oratorio)
Die Sintfluth (The Deluge) (as an oratorio)

MacBeth
Bradamante
Kallierhoe
Les Ruines de Babylon
Ulysses wiederkehr (Ulysses return)
Attilla
Faust
Mathilda ou les Croisades (Mathilde or The Crusades)
Romulus und Remus
Bacchus (also subject of a 10th symphony)
Die Apotheose im Tempel des Jupiter Ammon
Melusine
Die Mainacht (Maynight)
Wladimir der Grosse (Vladimir the Great)

[Leira]

Tempest
Hamlet
Wilhelm Tell