Interesting article about Brahms

[MarcusHoffman]

On the contrary, I can't think of any other composer who had such a long-reaching sense of structure and scope than Wagner.For instance, listen to the Overture to the Mastersingers of Nuremberg, where he takes themes spanning his 6 hour opera, and manages to compress them in an immensely cohesive manner.He attempted things infinitely more ambitious than Beethoven.His compositional style differed greatly though.Beethoven's composition structure were determined by musical factors, i.e. what seemed a logical musical structure that sustained interest.Wagner composed music in a storytelling manner, the themes and development determined by poetic ideas.The fact that he somehow managed to unify all his millions of ideas and weave an incredibly complex whole makes his achievement all the more remarkable.However, as someone mentioned above, perhaps his idea of the Total Art form was flawed, in that, rather than becoming more than the sum of its parts, the drama slowed the progress of the music, and the music slowed the pace of the drama, hence some finding it 'utterly tedious'.Wagner's most spine-tingling moments came when he allowed the music full rein, i.e Tristan and Isolde, and the astounding last five minutes of the Ring cycle.

[Peter]

Originally posted by MarcusHoffman:
Wagner's most spine-tingling moments came when he allowed the music full rein, i.e Tristan and Isolde, and the astounding last five minutes of the Ring cycle.

Well I suppose 5 minutes out of around 12 hours isn't bad - Rossini made much the same point!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by MarcusHoffman:
... as someone mentioned above, perhaps his idea of the Total Art form was flawed, in that, rather than becoming more than the sum of its parts, the drama slowed the progress of the music, and the music slowed the pace of the drama, hence some finding it 'utterly tedious'.Wagner's most spine-tingling moments came when he allowed the music full rein, i.e Tristan and Isolde, and the astounding last five minutes of the Ring cycle.

Well if thats what you believe fair enough, but I'm afraid I can't agree. And how often is it when he lets the music go 'full rein' that it develops into some grotesque brass bombast!? I'm interested in dramatic classical music above all, and in terms of producing convincing music drama Beethoven is way ahead in my opinion, Handel too (just to mention it!).


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well if thats what you believe fair enough, but I'm afraid I can't agree. And how often is it when he lets the music go 'full rein' that it develops into some grotesque brass bombast!? I'm interested in dramatic classical music above all, and in terms of producing convincing music drama Beethoven is way ahead in my opinion, Handel too (just to mention it!).

Welcome, MarcusHoffman, to our little band of Wagner defenders here, who are surrounded by Wagnerphobes. And why do we talk only about brass, when I have posted a beautiful aria and chorus on my 'Meistersinger' excerpt on another thread here this week, which has received no comment except from within our little defensive pillbox. In my opinion, Wagner's most beautiful writing is for the string sections, although I love his brass also, and it's not always bombastic, it's often mellow and melodic.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 02, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I suppose 5 minutes out of around 12 hours isn't bad - Rossini made much the same point!

14 hours.

There are many moments of great music in the Ring; to list just a few: rhe Rhinemaidens' song, the entry of the gods into Valhalla, the Spring Song in Walküre, Wotan's Farewell, the Forging Song, the Forest Murmurs, anything else with the Woodbird, Siegfried and Brunnhilde's duet, Siegfried's Rhine Journey, the Rhine Maidens trying to get the Ring from Siegfried, Siegfried's awakening from the potion as he is dying, Siegfried's funeral music, Brunnhilde's finale.

As Steppenwolf says, these make me want to throw a chair out of the window, or something like that.

Besides, if Rossini was not good enough to impress Beethoven, why should we accept his opinion!?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
14 hours.

There are many moments of great music in the Ring; to list just a few: rhe Rhinemaidens' song, the entry of the gods into Valhalla, the Spring Song in Walküre, Wotan's Farewell, the Forging Song, the Forest Murmurs, anything else with the Woodbird, Siegfried and Brunnhilde's duet, Siegfried's Rhine Journey, the Rhine Maidens trying to get the Ring from Siegfried, Siegfried's awakening from the potion as he is dying, Siegfried's funeral music, Brunnhilde's finale.

As Steppenwolf says, these make me want to throw a chair out of the window, or something like that.

Besides, if Rossini was not good enough to impress Beethoven, why should we accept his opinion!?

I actually do admire quite a lot of Wagner, all the pieces you mention, but I couldn't bring myself to sit through a complete opera let alone the complete Ring cycle - now there has to be something in this, as even those in the Wagner camp here are admitting he can be long-winded.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I actually do admire quite a lot of Wagner, all the pieces you mention, but I couldn't bring myself to sit through a complete opera let alone the complete Ring cycle - now there has to be something in this, as even those in the Wagner camp here are admitting he can be long-winded.

I have mentioned here before my experience of listening to the 2nd act of Siegfried on the Radio. There was hardly any real music to it, just huge stretches of 'accompagnato'. The manner of it was not dramatic or musically interesting enough to hold my attention, I humbly suggest it would have been better if they cut out the instruments all together and just made it a conventional play!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 03, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
I actually do admire quite a lot of Wagner, all the pieces you mention, but I couldn't bring myself to sit through a complete opera let alone the complete Ring cycle - now there has to be something in this, as even those in the Wagner camp here are admitting he can be long-winded.

He can be long-winded. To me, however, the Meistersinger is a work where every note of the music is apt and beautiful. It is like a huge series of inspired variations on five themes, and I find every moment of it, down to the smallest orchestral transition or fill, musically enchanting.

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm interested in dramatic classical music above all, and in terms of producing convincing music drama Beethoven is way ahead in my opinion, Handel too (just to mention it!).

I will leave untouched the unfavourable comparison to Beethoven, but the comparison with Handel I cannot leave unchallenged!
Handel certainly had a talent for producing some very charming melodies (albeit a talent without uniform consistency), but I humbly submit that in terms of musical-DRAMA(I will not attempt a comparison of different styles of music in abstracto) there is absolutely no comparison between a Handel opera and one of Wagner's masterworks.
Take, for instance, my favourite Wagner opera, Tristan und Isolde. Note the overwhelming dramatic intensity and profound psychological depth, woven together with the most sensuous, lush and rapturous harmonic structure. There was a time, when I was younger, when I would probably have considered Tristan to be 'tedious', when my musical taste had not developed beyond a mere recognition of catchy, toe-tapping 'tunes' (no offence to Handel!). But something happened - I grew up. And I learnt what love is, I learnt through (painful) experience the deep and profound longing of impossible passion and desire, and I recognised then what a masterpiece of art - and psychology - Wagner produces in Tristan. I can relate to the themes in the opera so well I feel like King Ludwig II of Bavaria, who said to Wagner that he was so moved by Tristan, and it spoke so directly to his heart, that he felt as if it was written especially for him! (although unlike Ludwig I am not insane!)
In terms of drama there is nothing like it. Whether it be the intense, painful yearning of the Prelude, or the orgasmically sexual tension vibrating throughout the love-duet in act two, with the hauntingly beautiful love motif emerging through the tense harmony, or the rapturous beauty of Brangane's aria, warning the two lovers of danger as they lay in embrace under the cover of darkness, as it wafts through the sultry night air, or the heart-rending grief of Isolde in the final scene .. in terms of drama there is nothing like it. In terms of harmony it is revolutionary - the first classical work of the modern era. You can quote Rossini ad nauseum but I could also quote illustrious composers such as Hugo Wolf, Debussy, Shonenberg, Strauss and others who have acknowledged their enormous debt to Wagner, and have credited Tristan as being a revolutionary composition, one that gave way to the music of the late 19th and the 20th century in the same way that Beethoven's Eroica paved the way for the Romantic movement. To this day Hollywood soundtracks (attempt to) emulate the Wagnerian style of dramatic orchestral composition.
In terms of psychology, also, Tristan is startingly accurate and profound, to an extent not even dreamt of in Handel's day. Wagner himself warned that, if properly performed, it would send those who were not ready to hear it, mad. The emotional, and psychological intensity is overwhelming, if you tune into it. I myself would not advise someone, who has recently lost a loved one in death, to listen to Isolde's final aria .. the way grief is presented in music is disturbingly real and graphic. The conductor chosen by Wagner to perform the premiere of the piece actually had a breakdown during the rehersals and had to be committed to an asylum! And at least 2 conductors in the 20th century have dropped dead while conducting it! Such is the profound and intense power of the opera.
So I really don't think it is appropriate to compare Handel to THAT!

As for the tedious thing ... well, I admit there are some long-winded and dreary moments that could do with a bit of cutting, especially in Acts 1 and 2 of Siegfried, and during some of Wotan's enormous monologues in Die Walkure, but the marvelous moments more than make up for them. And I don't think you can say the same about other operas, such as Meistersinger (as Chassz has noted) nor Parsival, which sustain a high level of inspiration throughout.



[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited May 07, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Bravo, Steppenwolf! A fine piece of writing!

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited May 06, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I actually do admire quite a lot of Wagner, all the pieces you mention, but I couldn't bring myself to sit through a complete opera let alone the complete Ring cycle - now there has to be something in this, as even those in the Wagner camp here are admitting he can be long-winded.

Years ago I watched the entire Ring cycle on PBS. It's about 14 hrs. so at 2 hrs. a night or so you watched it for 7 nights. I found it fascinating but if you go see it in person you better not have anything scheduled because you have to go back every night for a week! Must be exhausting!


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I will leave untouched the unfavourable comparison to Beethoven, but the comparison with Handel I cannot leave unchallenged!
Handel certainly had a talent for producing some very charming melodies...

"Handel understands effect better than any of us, when he chooses, he strikes like a thunderbolt."
- Mozart

I recommend you join my Handel Group if you believe handel can't write good dramatic music!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/handelforum/

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited May 07, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Joy:
Years ago I watched the entire Ring cycle on PBS. It's about 14 hrs. so at 2 hrs. a night or so you watched it for 7 nights. I found it fascinating but if you go see it in person you better not have anything scheduled because you have to go back every night for a week! Must be exhausting!

Was this with Levine? Maybe what I saw was not so long ago; but I wished then and still do that I had had a vhs recorder. It was a tremendous experience for me at the time.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Was this with Levine? Maybe what I saw was not so long ago; but I wished then and still do that I had had a vhs recorder. It was a tremendous experience for me at the time.

So sorry Sorrano but I can't remember. This has been some 20 yrs. ago!! I do remember however that it was fascinating to see! I didn't have a video recorder at that time either. Rats!! Time for PBS to replay it or some other version of it at least.

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'Truth and beauty joined'