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    #31
    'Beethoven's final thoughts'

    I agree with Gurn that Beethoven regarded Opus 135 to be his fond farewell.
    Beethoven informed Schlesiger that it was to be his final quartet, "muss es sein"
    "es muss sein".
    A work that steps forward from darkness into light, raising seroius questions but framing them wholly in different ways; by directness, humaneness, and way Kundra calls so brilliantly "unbearable lightness of being".
    With it's enigmatic question and answer as to whether or not "es muss sein", the work stands between a joke and parable, between quotidian and allegory of necessity. In it's four movements four categories of feeling prevail; in the first, wit, dislocations, and incongruities that surprise and please; in the slow beautiful Lento, lyrical reflection; in the finale, the dialectic of darkness into light, of deep questioning followed by its transformation into joyous, brilliant resolution.

    "For Beethoven, as for the greatest literary artist, above all his beloved Shakespeare, comedy is not a lesser form that tragedy but is its true counterpart, the celebration of the human in all things".

    Quoted from - Lewis Lockwood.
    -----------------------------


    With astonishing depth of insight Wilhelm von Lenz made a remark that Okulibisheff quotes with a sneer; "Beethoven is all things at all times. He is the very nature of things under unchanging conditions".
    This is perfectly true: even when Beethoven seems to have worked himself up into the wildest frenzy, he sees the world with eyes that are clear as ever. But he is not afraid to draw aside the curtain that veils the abyss.
    He knows no fear of chaos, out of which matter is made form, because he is aware of his power to give form to all that his eyes have seen.

    The late string quartes are the greatest masterpieces the world has ever known.
    I feel Beethoven's presence most intensely
    when listening to these pieces, as with the Adagio sostenuto in the Hammerklavier Sonata Opus 106 .




    [This message has been edited by lysander (edited April 15, 2003).]

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      #32
      Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
      Curious as to why that might be (not the liking of 131, but regarding 135 as inferior)?
      I'm curious too. I don't know, really! Perhaps we should start a new thread to investigate the question.
      Be true! Be true! Be true!

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        #33
        Originally posted by Troels:
        I'm curious too. I don't know, really! Perhaps we should start a new thread to investigate the question.
        Well, Beethoven himself when pushed announced op131 as his favourite, though I think he also said that each of them was in its respective way. For us however there should be no question to discuss on the matter.

        On an interpretive point regarding op135, in the final movement from my experience (at least) with the return of the 'Muss es sein' theme the repeated notes are typically undertaken in a very clipped manner that does not work too well in my opinion. Only with my recording by the Lindsay Quartet to the bows literally slide across the strings with these notes, if you catch my drift, and the effect is much better for it.

        ------------------
        "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

        [This message has been edited by Rod (edited April 15, 2003).]
        http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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          #34
          Originally posted by Rod:
          Well, Beethoven himself when pushed announced op131 as his favourite, though I think he also said that each of them was in its respective way. For us however there should be no question to discuss on the matter.

          On an interpretive point regarding op135, in the final movement from my experience (at least) with the return of the 'Muss es sein' theme the repeated notes are typically undertaken in a very clipped manner that does not work too well in my opinion. Only with my recording by the Lindsay Quartet to the bows literally slide across the strings with these notes, if you catch my drift, and the effect is much better for it.

          Do you think the Lindsays is the best version then? What about intonation wise etc?

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            #35
            Originally posted by orpheus:
            Do you think the Lindsays is the best version then? What about intonation wise etc?
            I'm not particularly a fan of theirs, their playing can be a bit off, as I think you are inferring. However in the current context their interpretation is the point of discussion. Nevertheless their performance of this op135 finale is the best I have heard, but enhanced largely because of the point I mention above.

            ------------------
            "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
            http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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              #36
              Originally posted by Rod:
              I'm not particularly a fan of theirs, their playing can be a bit off, as I think you are inferring. However in the current context their interpretation is the point of discussion. Nevertheless their performance of this op135 finale is the best I have heard, but enhanced largely because of the point I mention above.

              I think the Lindsays have some remarkable qualities as real chamber musicians. I heard them do op.135 in concert this year and it was pretty stunning I must say! They also do Bartok brilliantly.

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                #37
                Originally posted by orpheus:
                I think the Lindsays have some remarkable qualities as real chamber musicians. I heard them do op.135 in concert this year and it was pretty stunning I must say! They also do Bartok brilliantly.

                They have the right emotion but the playing can be a bit ropey, especially from 1st violin. tempo could be tightened up a bit too.


                ------------------
                "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Peter:

                  But he didn't embrace the new!

                  Peter,
                  True, he didn't embrace the new generation of composers, that's for sure, but he did embrace new ways of expressing his thoughts in his music, which was what I intended here. In fact, I am having an extended off-line discussion on this very topic, and my own premise is that B was a classicist right up til his death, because he retained structures that were pre-existing for him and developed them to their extreme possibilities (I think). But his use of those structures in the most novel ways, and his ability to blend different structures (e.g. - he was actually able to turn fugue and variation into sonata form!!) was new, this was my point. Even though there are tremendous leanings on Haydn and Mozart to start a direction, the final form was always uniquely Beethoven. Otherwise, he would have been as forgotten as all of the other contemporaries of H & M, whose music appears merely as historical footnotes.
                  Regards, Gurn
                  Regards,
                  Gurn
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
                    Peter,
                    True, he didn't embrace the new generation of composers, that's for sure, but he did embrace new ways of expressing his thoughts in his music, which was what I intended here. In fact, I am having an extended off-line discussion on this very topic, and my own premise is that B was a classicist right up til his death, because he retained structures that were pre-existing for him and developed them to their extreme possibilities (I think). But his use of those structures in the most novel ways, and his ability to blend different structures (e.g. - he was actually able to turn fugue and variation into sonata form!!) was new, this was my point. Even though there are tremendous leanings on Haydn and Mozart to start a direction, the final form was always uniquely Beethoven. Otherwise, he would have been as forgotten as all of the other contemporaries of H & M, whose music appears merely as historical footnotes.
                    Regards, Gurn
                    I couldn't have put it better myself Gurn!

                    regards,
                    Michael.

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                      #40
                      But do you truthfully think that, if he had not been so daring in his structure and form, he would have plunged into obscurity? Do you not think that the actual quality of the music would have shone through? His 3 op. 2 piano sonatas demonstrate how beautifully and creatively he culd write within the classicsl boundaries set by Haydn and Mozart.

                      Regards,
                      Michael.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by OboeKing:
                        But do you truthfully think that, if he had not been so daring in his structure and form, he would have plunged into obscurity? Do you not think that the actual quality of the music would have shone through? His 3 op. 2 piano sonatas demonstrate how beautifully and creatively he culd write within the classicsl boundaries set by Haydn and Mozart.

                        Regards,
                        Michael.
                        No, it was clearly his talent and vision that set him apart from his contemporaries. Not that some of them weren't talented too, but without looking it up, name one! All I am meaning is that he took the form and applied his own vision to it, and in fact superseded his role models, and that he never gave up the essential form of the classical style, he merely carried it to its logical conclusion. In fact, he brought it so far that he de facto killed it, because no one who came after had the talent or motivation to envision a method of improving upon it. One point that I would like to make, in the interest of being controversial, is that I think B was leaning toward what we now call romantic in his early years (Bonn and earliest Vienna), but he actually backed away from "avant-garde" as he learned more of the classical style and became instead the ultimate classical composer.
                        Regards, Gurn
                        Regards,
                        Gurn
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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                          #42
                          Quartet: Op. 132. No question.
                          Sonatas: I prefer...no 4! and ... the Kreutzer (forceful, spirited playing, with big, beefy pizzicatos a must!)
                          Symphony: Eroica
                          Concerto: violin (sometimes the 4th)
                          Other work: the greatest and most difficult to bring off: Missa Solemnis. Soooooo appropriate at this time. The Sanctus and Agnus Dei being the emotional and musical crux of the whole Beethoven oeuvre. Considering that, the only interpretations that will satisfy me are those with a REAL basso (those descending scales on "peccata mundi"...!) in the last section. Kurt Moll and Cesare siepi reign supreme.
                          "Occasional" works: the Egmont Overture, and Choral Fantasia.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
                            One point that I would like to make, in the interest of being controversial, is that I think B was leaning toward what we now call romantic in his early years (Bonn and earliest Vienna), but he actually backed away from "avant-garde" as he learned more of the classical style and became instead the ultimate classical composer.
                            Regards, Gurn
                            I agree with this - the influence of Clementi and Dussek on the early sonatas and Italian opera in works such as Adelaide anticipates a style more in the spirit of Weber and Hummel. As Rosen puts it "He started with a late and diluted version of classicism and gradually returned to the stricter and more concise form of Mozart and Haydn".

                            ------------------
                            'Man know thyself'
                            'Man know thyself'

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                              #44
                              If I were to point out one specific movement by Beethoven as my favourite one it would have to be "Heiliger Dankgesang" followed by another heavenly adagio from a late quartet: the one from opus 127. The reason that I might not choose any of these quartets as my favourite Beethoven work is that opus 131 seems to my ears to be slightly better balanced.
                              Be true! Be true! Be true!

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                                #45


                                Music scholars have documented Clementi's remarkable influence on Beethoven's early piano sonata's

                                Many of the characteristics of the Beethoven style were anticipated in the Clementi sonatas. One of the many examples of this stylistic similarity can be heard in the opening Lento of Opus 6 no.1, the intensity of which forshadows the style of the Great Beethoven.

                                Indeed, one could argue Beethoven "borrowed" the theme from the Presto movement of Clementi's Opus 13 no.6 for the famous final movement of his Eroica Symphony.

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