More Rare Beethoven For Me

[Andrea]

I am always looking forward to hearing some of the lesser known Beethoven works especially the ones supplied by Rod. Yesterday my husband and I were in Vienna's Graben by Stephansdom and I had to check out the classical music shops there. I found a CD of Beethoven dances and minuets to add to the dance collection I already had (the 12 Contredances WoO 14, 12 German Dances WoO 8 and 12 Minuets WoO 7). This CD included the 11 Mödlinger Dances WoO 17 that were written in 1819. Schindler tells how Beethoven had retired to Mödling where he was working on the Missa Solemnis. It is said that Beethoven was requested by a group of 7 local musicians at the Gasthof "Zu den drei Raben" in the neighbouring village of Brühl, to compose a set of dances. The parts of these Mödling Dances were later discovered at the Thomasschule in Leipzig in 1905 and were published 2 years later.

This was a lovely find and I really enjoy these dances. They are so joyfull and happy that you want to get up and dance along. They are so Viennese and they would feel right at home being performed in the many Heurigen here in Heiligenstadt and Grinzing.

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[Alaska49erfan]

Someone please tell me exactly how many symphonys beethoven wrote

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I am always looking forward to hearing some of the lesser known Beethoven works especially the ones supplied by Rod. Yesterday my husband and I were in Vienna's Graben by Stephansdom and I had to check out the classical music shops there. I found a CD of Beethoven dances and minuets to add to the dance collection I already had (the 12 Contredances WoO 14, 12 German Dances WoO 8 and 12 Minuets WoO 7). This CD included the 11 Mödlinger Dances WoO 17 that were written in 1819. Schindler tells how Beethoven had retired to Mödling where he was working on the Missa Solemnis. It is said that Beethoven was requested by a group of 7 local musicians at the Gasthof "Zu den drei Raben" in the neighbouring village of Brühl, to compose a set of dances. The parts of these Mödling Dances were later discovered at the Thomasschule in Leipzig in 1905 and were published 2 years later.

This was a lovely find and I really enjoy these dances. They are so joyfull and happy that you want to get up and dance along. They are so Viennese and they would feel right at home being performed in the many Heurigen here in Heiligenstadt and Grinzing.

I'm sorry to inform you Andrea that the Modlinger dances are almost certainly not Beethoven's! I have recording's of all the B's output in this genre and the Modlinger's stand out quite noticeably from a stylistic point of view. Musically they are the poorer than the other much earlier dance sets in my opinion, not something you would expect from Beethoven in 1819. I think there's too much Tyrolean 'oompah oompah' in WoO17 to be a work of Beethoven.

That being said, the other dances are great entertainment.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited April 23, 2003).]

[melvyn]

Yes, I also have copies of these Modlinger Tanze and they are indeed very tuneful. Perhaps too tuneful for Beethoven at that stage of his career!

I taped them many years ago from Radio 3 and there was no suggestion that they were not by Beethoven. The Biamonti catalogue says 'probably not by Beethoven'. Do you know of any published information about the authorship of these 'Modlinger Tanze'?

I know that Woo16 (12 Ecossaises for orchestra) was a publisher's fraud. Does that also apply to Woo17?

Melvyn.

[Rod]

Originally posted by melvyn:
Yes, I also have copies of these Modlinger Tanze and they are indeed very tuneful. Perhaps too tuneful for Beethoven at that stage of his career!

I taped them many years ago from Radio 3 and there was no suggestion that they were not by Beethoven. The Biamonti catalogue says 'probably not by Beethoven'. Do you know of any published information about the authorship of these 'Modlinger Tanze'?

I know that Woo16 (12 Ecossaises for orchestra) was a publisher's fraud. Does that also apply to Woo17?

Melvyn.

It was just assumed that the music found was that mentioned by Schindler because it near enough fitted the cirumstances, I don't think there is any direct proof that the music is by Beethoven, only assumption. I don't think there is any further coroborration of Schindler's story either. Stylistically I would say they are definitely not Beethoven. 100% certain. For sure Beethoven's early dance compositions are much better than this music.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited April 26, 2003).]

[Roehre]

Yes, I also have copies of these Modlinger Tanze and they are indeed very tuneful. Perhaps too tuneful for Beethoven at that stage of his career!

I taped them many years ago from Radio 3 and there was no suggestion that they were not by Beethoven. The Biamonti catalogue says 'probably not by Beethoven'. Do you know of any published information about the authorship of these 'Modlinger Tanze'?

I know that Woo16 (12 Ecossaises for orchestra) was a publisher's fraud. Does that also apply to Woo17?

Melvyn.

The authenticity of WoO 17 is to say the least unclear. The fact that there don't exist the slightest trace of a sketch for them makes it unlikely, but by no means impossible, being by Beethoven.
The authenticity of othere dances is btw not fully clear either. Especially from the set the contratänze woO 14 and the dances WoO 12 there are numbers which ar likely not by Ludwig van Beethoven but by his brother Kaspar (of whom there exists a rather nice sonata for piano 4 hands).
It is unlikely however that a publisher's fraud is behind all this, but whether Schindler's is not behind it.... . ?

The 12 Ecossaises WoO 16 however were long lost, but nontheless expected to be such a thing.
Since an original was retrieved early 1990s we know for certain.
A recording: a Monument recording "masters of the Classical Keyboard", see http://www.monumentrecords.com/catalog.asp?pg=3

[Leira]

Hi Andrea ,
I have also been to that Cd store! How I miss Wien. I remember one shop in Kohlmarkt. I also enjoy the WoO 17 set especially Tänze 1, 2 und 4. I hope you're not disappointed B couldn't make it. Kind regards Leira

[Leira]

how could Schindler have learned of B's ways of composing as early as 1819 in the first place? Has anyone ever tried to explain this, or is it not important?

[Peter]

Hi Andrea,

When I saw your post here I had to do a double take. The reason being that my name is also Andrea and I was wondering if you as well live here in Vienna? I have been living in Wien for 16 years and most of that time here in Heiligenstadt. Small world...

I too have been to that classical music cd shop on the Graben and have purchased a few cds from there. I also have that Beethoven cd with his german dances which I enjoy very much despite what seems to be the fact that those Mödling dances are probably not composed by him. Das ist egal. I like them just the same.

Ah what comes of digging up the past which Roehre has been doing par exellence lately! The original post by Andrea was in 2003 and I'm pretty certain Hollywood that it was yourself who posted it.

[Chris]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

[Hollywood]

Ah what comes of digging up the past which Roehre has been doing par exellence lately! The original post by Andrea was in 2003 and I'm pretty certain Hollywood that it was yourself who posted it.

Hey Peter! Is today the first of April? Is there a method to his madness or is the fact that I don't remember that original post, that Alzheimers can not be far behind?

[Peter]

Hey Peter! Is today the first of April? Is there a method to his madness or is the fact that I don't remember that original post, that Alzheimers can not be far behind?

Well I don't recall most of the topics Roehre has been resurrecting lately - quite frightening how the time has flown and next year will be the 10th anniversary of this site!

[Joy]

Well I don't recall most of the topics Roehre has been resurrecting lately - quite frightening how the time has flown and next year will be the 10th anniversary of this site!

Yes, a lot of resurrecting lately. Kind of weird to read my posts several years later, it's like reading someone elses. And, by the way, congratulations on your anniversary (a bit early).