Beethoven Violin Concerto Ideas

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Rod:
I would not particularly rate Mutter as a good Beethoven violinist from what I've heard, her playing is somewhat erratic to say the least. I would be surprised if she could do anything with the Concerto. I didn't like her performances of the Sonatas (that were televised) at all.

Well, if your looking for an "auhentic"/stylistic performance, then I agree Mutter's not your gal! She's a virtuoso violinist with all that entails. But her tone and intonation are just incredible, and without equal in my opinion.

[Rod]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Well, if your looking for an "auhentic"/stylistic performance, then I agree Mutter's not your gal! She's a virtuoso violinist with all that entails. But her tone and intonation are just incredible, and without equal in my opinion.

Well, the recent concerto recording has had mixed reviews. Regardless the whole concept of this violin concerto as performed today needs looking at in my opinion. Typically the whole piece is played quasi-largo to my ears. Bruggen's direction puts some badly needed spirit into the work, assisted by the cutting-edge and colour of period instruments. In my music dictionary 'Allegro ma non troppo' does not mean 'as lame as possible'.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by orpheus:

Actually I think the Alban Berg Violin Concerto is about the finest I've ever heard. Do you know this one? If not, check out the Anne Sophie Mutter recording...that will bring anyone to tears. (Incidentally, Mutter's recording of the Beethoven is my favourite recording of that piece too.)

All right! Another fan of the Berg concerto! It's been awhile since I last listened to it (my recording is on lp and I don't listen to my vinyls much anmore) but I did enjoy it when I did!

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
All right! Another fan of the Berg concerto! It's been awhile since I last listened to it (my recording is on lp and I don't listen to my vinyls much anmore) but I did enjoy it when I did!

The Wolfgang Rihm on the same CD (Mutter) is a pretty interesting piece too, I thought. Does anyone have any thoughts on this piece?

I also recently heard the very first recording of the Berg, 1936 (3 months after the composer's tragic death) with Webern conducting. There is also a very funny story about these rehearsals in the sleeve note: After 3 rehearsals, Webern had only managed to get through 10 bars! If you know Webern's music, then this is pretty amusing.

[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited April 14, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by orpheus:
The Wolfgang Rihm on the same CD (Mutter) is a pretty interesting piece too, I thought. Does anyone have any thoughts on this piece?

I also recently heard the very first recording of the Berg, 1936 (3 months after the composer's tragic death) with Webern conducting. There is also a very funny story about these rehearsals in the sleeve note: After 3 rehearsals, Webern had only managed to get through 10 bars! If you know Webern's music, then this is pretty amusing.

[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited April 14, 2003).]

Yes, indeed, that is rather funny! Are you, perchance, a Webern fan? I have his complete orchestral music (doesn't take up many cd's, of course) and am thinking of doing some more listening to his works.

[orpheus]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Yes, indeed, that is rather funny! Are you, perchance, a Webern fan? I have his complete orchestral music (doesn't take up many cd's, of course) and am thinking of doing some more listening to his works.

I used to be a massive Webern fan, but then got tired of the brittle/abstract textures. But more recently I've come to think that this is more a matter of (as he did the complete edition and the one most people know))Boulez's own slant on the music - vis. through his own - and that this interpretation distorts the actually quite Romantic nature of Webern's music. So now I am quite interested again. Still atonal/pre-serial Schoenberg and Berg are my favs of that music.

[Poseidan73]

I like the Yehudi Menuhin/Wiener Philharmoniker (Constantin Silvestri) 1960 recording. Also recommended is the Christian Ferras/Royal Philharmonic Orchestra (Malcom Sargent) 1963 recording. I have the new Mutter recording, i don't really like it. She tries to show off too much, which really irritates me. And she certainly does not play as well as Menuhin or Ferras.

[Kreutzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
Typically the whole piece is played quasi-largo to my ears. Bruggen's direction puts some badly needed spirit into the work, assisted by the cutting-edge and colour of period instruments. In my music dictionary 'Allegro ma non troppo' does not mean 'as lame as possible'.

I agree Period instruments can bring some welcome bite and airiness to Beethoven's textures. But they are best revealed in moderate tempos. Collegium aureum's interpretations of the Eroica and Seventh are quite revelatory, if not my favorites, in that respect. As for the concerto, the same luminous, noble and lyrical qualities are best illustrated in recordings emphasizing the "sound", not the "fury" of Beethoven. For example, the 2 Philips, late sixties Concertgebouw recordings with Szeryng/Haitink (magnificent Joachim cadenzas), and Grumiaux/Davis. Real luxury playing from both soloists and orchestra, engulfing music making luminously captured by the Philips engineers. Classic, unfailingly satisfying, for-keeps recordings.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Kreutzer:
I agree Period instruments can bring some welcome bite and airiness to Beethoven's textures. But they are best revealed in moderate tempos...

How often does Beethoven ask for 'moderato' in his orchestral music?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Kreutzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
How often does Beethoven ask for 'moderato' in his orchestral music?

You are mistaking "moderate tempos" (my term)with "moderato", a tempo marking, which is wrong.
The term moderato (or its near equivalent "non troppo") is almost always used as an adjunct to the main tempo marking, for example: Allegro moderato, or in the very work we are discussing: Allegro ma non troppo (first movement). In other words, Lively, but not too fast. Equating the marking Allegro (lively) with a fast speed is wrong. Some of the greatest Beethoven interpreters (Kempff, Klemperer) used moderate allegros and swift andantes or adagios to superb effect. The idea is to let the music breathe and reveal its singing qualities. Fast tempos are not always the answer. The marking "Allegro con brio" merely means "lively and brilliant", not fast and furious...

[Rod]

When you see me write the term 'moderato' in a general context I mean 'moderate tempo'! (I use this term especially liberally!).

I accept that just rushing the music is no solution, but it is a very rare occasion indeed that a Beethoven piece marked 'con brio' is performed anything like 'lively and brilliant'. Beethoven uses more of the 'lively' class of indications than any composer I can think of, but this same music is typically performed in a dead-beat manner. Trouble is it can sound more rushed on modern instruments when it needn't - there is more transparency in period instrument orchestras and this allows I think a more satisfactory realisation of these quicker tempi.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited April 17, 2003).]

[rach]

Menuhin/Furtwangler is my favorite. I love Hilary Hahn, and the Hahn / Zinman is excelent too.

ITA, I think Beethoven's v cto is the closest to a perfect concerto, LOL Beethoven was not a violinst.

[Peter]

Originally posted by rach:
Menuhin/Furtwangler is my favorite. I love Hilary Hahn, and the Hahn / Zinman is excelent too.

ITA, I think Beethoven's v cto is the closest to a perfect concerto, LOL Beethoven was not a violinst.

He had learnt the Violin in his youth, played the Viola in the court orchestra at Bonn and I believe continued to have Violin lessons in the 1790's in Vienna! Obviously though the piano was his forte!

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'Man know thyself'

[rach]

Originally posted by Peter:
He had learnt the Violin in his youth, played the Viola in the court orchestra at Bonn and I believe continued to have Violin lessons in the 1790's in Vienna! Obviously though the piano was his forte!

Thanks Peter, I guess I have that impression because it is well known that Beethoven played the piano.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by orpheus:
The Wolfgang Rihm on the same CD (Mutter) is a pretty interesting piece too, I thought. Does anyone have any thoughts on this piece?

I also recently heard the very first recording of the Berg, 1936 (3 months after the composer's tragic death) with Webern conducting. There is also a very funny story about these rehearsals in the sleeve note: After 3 rehearsals, Webern had only managed to get through 10 bars! If you know Webern's music, then this is pretty amusing.

[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited April 14, 2003).]

I also am a fan of Webern and Berg, as well as Schoenberg. It is said that grief was the main reason Webern spent the whole rehearsal on the first few bars; eventually another conductor led the concert, since it was clear Berg's friend was too grief-stricken to do it. I am amazed he actually completed the recording!

As for the Beethoven concerto, one of my favorites is the ancient one by Zino Francescatti (whatever happened to him? He was one of the great ones) and Eugene Ormandy conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra. It's much warmer and more lyrical than the Heifetz/BSO. Unfortunately the last movement is too slow for my taste.

BTW, I just got done listening to Kyung Wha-Chung play the Bruch concerto. Now there's a violinist! Technique, tone, fire, and warmth to match the very greatest. I've also heard her do the Walton, Stravinsky, and Berg concertos magnificently.