Toscanini vision : anybody modern directors embracing it ?!?

[Stargazer]

I just bought the remastered Toscanini cycle, and to much rejoyce, i found his style to be exactly what i was looking for.

I like my Beethoven fast, yet, it is so hard to find a good conductor able to convey Beethoven intentions without making it sound rushed, or without missing a few details here and there.

Toscanini isn't perfect in this reguard, but i like his take on 'fast' beethoven better then everybody else i heard so far.

The problem is, as much as i like those recordings, the sound quality is rather disappointing.

Are there other recordings from other directors with a style similar to Toscanini released more recently ?!?

I'm not looking for the very latest digital recordings, i have Carlo Kleiver's 5th and 7th and they sound fantastic already.

Some people suggested me this releases :
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...63146?v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...63146?v=glance

What do you think ?!?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Stargazer:

I like my Beethoven fast, yet, it is so hard to find a good conductor able to convey Beethoven intentions without making it sound rushed, or without missing a few details here and there.

You might want to try Roger Norrington's version of the Symphonies. I've listened to the first three and the general tendency is to play them fast. I was a little uncomfortable with the slow movements, but overall pleased with the entire works.

[Poseidan73]

Originally posted by Stargazer:
I just bought the remastered Toscanini cycle, and to much rejoyce, i found his style to be exactly what i was looking for.

How's the sound quality? I've been eyeing that, but since i just bought tons off the internet, it'll be awhile before i get some new CDs. I don't mind Toscanini, but i haven't heard his Beethoven recordings. I have his recording of Brahms' 1st, and i don't consider it faster than other recordings i've heard...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
You might want to try Roger Norrington's version of the Symphonies. I've listened to the first three and the general tendency is to play them fast. I was a little uncomfortable with the slow movements, but overall pleased with the entire works.

I've heard these Norrington symphonies but I would say if you are going to get a period instrument set go for the Hanover Band's. The sound is more colourful and ambient, and the direction is on the whole quick whilst having a more fluid feel to it.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Stargazer:
I just bought the remastered Toscanini cycle, and to much rejoyce, i found his style to be exactly what i was looking for.

I like my Beethoven fast, yet, it is so hard to find a good conductor able to convey Beethoven intentions without making it sound rushed, or without missing a few details here and there.

I'm not looking for the very latest digital recordings, i have Carlo Kleiver's 5th and 7th and they sound fantastic already.

I agree it's hard to find a 'faster' recording of these without making them seem rushed. I had just heard a recording of the 5th a couple of weeks ago, I think it was the Cincinnatti orchestra, and the conductor rushed through the first movement way too fast. I didn't even feel the power of it. The rest of the movements she conducted were about the right speed so I don't know why she rushed so fast through the first movement.
(I also enjoy C.K. recording of the 5th and 7th. One of my favourites).

Joy

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
How's the sound quality? I've been eyeing that, but since i just bought tons off the internet, it'll be awhile before i get some new CDs.

Unfortunatly, not very good.

They give you an extra CD with sound samples of the original recordings just to make a comparison, and indeed, they did a really good job with the remastering, but i would still recommend this set only if you 'need' to have early recordings of Beethoven (i think most of the symphonies were recorded around 1939), eitherwise stay clear of it.

Not that it sound terrible, but it doesn't sound great either...

[Poseidan73]

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Not that it sound terrible, but it doesn't sound great either...

I can imagine. My Toscanini CD of Brahms 1st hardly ever gets played for more than ten minutes, the sound quality just rubs me the wrong way.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've heard these Norrington symphonies but I would say if you are going to get a period instrument set go for the Hanover Band's. The sound is more colourful and ambient, and the direction is on the whole quick whilst having a more fluid feel to it.

Indeed! As I recall, you recommended the Norrington set to me awhile back. (I do not regret purchasing it, either.) I do have the overtures done by the Hanover Band.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Indeed! As I recall, you recommended the Norrington set to me awhile back. (I do not regret purchasing it, either.) I do have the overtures done by the Hanover Band.

Yes but everyone must be aware of my ultimate choice by now! The Norrington set is excellent value now it has been re-released on Virgin, actually much cheaper than the already cheap Hanover Band set here in London. But I have some problems with the sound on the Norrington set, the 2 & 8 disk has a beautiful sound but other (later released) disks sound rather dry, and there are some serious variations in recording levels in some cases - for instance with number 6 play a little of the first movement then jump to the last movement and notice the difference! This spoils an otherwise excellent version of no6, as good as you'll get. No 7 is poorly recorded too in my opinion. All of this more an issue if you paid the original premium price when the disks were first released individually. If you have the HB overtures you know that the Nimbus sound is glorious! Their Missa Solemnis is the only one I listen too these days largely because of the same reason.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited April 19, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes but everyone must be aware of my ultimate choice by now! The Norrington set is excellent value now it has been re-released on Virgin, actually much cheaper than the already cheap Hanover Band set here in London. But I have some problems with the sound on the Norrington set, the 2 & 8 disk has a beautiful sound but other (later released) disks sound rather dry, and there are some serious variations in recording levels in some cases - for instance with number 6 play a little of the first movement then jump to the last movement and notice the difference! This spoils an otherwise excellent version of no6, as good as you'll get. No 7 is poorly recorded too in my opinion. All of this more an issue if you paid the original premium price when the disks were first released individually. If you have the HB overtures you know that the Nimbus sound is glorious! Their Missa Solemnis is the only one I listen too these days largely because of the same reason.

And I suppose it is only a matter of time before I pick up the Hanover Band version of the Symphonies. However, I am more interested in the interpretation than the sound of the recording. I can enjoy many of the older recordings because the bad sound is expected; I listen to the performance itself.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree it's hard to find a 'faster' recording of these without making them seem rushed. I had just heard a recording of the 5th a couple of weeks ago, I think it was the Cincinnatti orchestra, and the conductor rushed through the first movement way too fast. I didn't even feel the power of it. The rest of the movements she conducted were about the right speed so I don't know why she rushed so fast through the first movement.
(I also enjoy C.K. recording of the 5th and 7th. One of my favourites).

Joy

Strange; I feel that most conductors except for period instrumentalists take that famous movement too slow. A notable exception is the old Bruno Walter/New York Phil. recording, in which the Maestro takes the first movement at just about Beethoven's original metronome marking of 108 to the bar. But Walter's recordings are very little like Toscanini's; much more flexible and relaxed without lacking precision or dynamics. Some earlier critics would have said that Walter's interpretations were much more like Beethoven's own than most of the modern conductors who stick to the composer's metronome settings all the way through.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Strange; I feel that most conductors except for period instrumentalists take that famous movement too slow. A notable exception is the old Bruno Walter/New York Phil. recording, in which the Maestro takes the first movement at just about Beethoven's original metronome marking of 108 to the bar. But Walter's recordings are very little like Toscanini's; much more flexible and relaxed without lacking precision or dynamics. And Walter slows down considerably for the second movement. Some earlier critics would have said that Walter's interpretations were much more like Beethoven's own than most of the modern conductors who stick to the composer's metronome settings all the way through.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Stargazer:
I like my Beethoven fast, yet, it is so hard to find a good conductor able to convey Beethoven intentions without making it sound rushed, or without missing a few details here and there.

Toscanini isn't perfect in this reguard, but i like his take on 'fast' beethoven better then everybody else i heard so far.

Toscanini's secret was to get every note in perfect time, perfect tune, and perfect balance throughout the orchestra. Few conductors take the trouble to get every note right, but Toscanini did. (And if you didn't get it right, woe betide! No orchestra would take his abuse now.) As an instrumentalist, I have learned that if you take the trouble to get every note in a run exactly right, it sounds a lot faster when you play it than it did when you were first learning it, even though you may actually be playing it slower.

A few modern conductors take this kind of trouble--Karajan, Boulez and Maazel come to mind, but unfortunately I don't really like any of them--too cold. Toscanini was not just a master technician, but a great artist. (Fritz Reiner was much the same--a technician in Toscanini's class, but a very different musician whose approach could be very flexible. I love everything he ever recorded, and his recordings sound much better than Toscanini's.)