Unattainable women

[Javax]

I have read that Beethoven preferred them. He seemed drawn to those women that he could never realistically hope to achieve a relationship with.

Those paying attention to my 5 posts thus far will know that I know practically nil about the man...but I am a December baby (as he was)...and I wonder if the drama...the painful yearning... wasn't more seductive than a healthy relationship with a woman he adored. ?

We do know that pain makes for great art, yes? I wonder if Beethoven ever reflected on this?

[Troels]

Originally posted by Javax:
I have read that Beethoven preferred them. He seemed drawn to those women that he could never realistically hope to achieve a relationship with.

Those paying attention to my 5 posts thus far will know that I know practically nil about the man...but I am a December baby (as he was)...and I wonder if the drama...the painful yearning... wasn't more seductive than a healthy relationship with a woman he adored. ?

We do know that pain makes for great art, yes? I wonder if Beethoven ever reflected on this?

He did. I can't remember any exact words, but he was certainly aware that his pains and sorrows were among his sources for creating music.

And the women? It was very characteristic of Beethoven that he strove for excellence. He did so in his music. He could very easily pour lots of good music out. His improvisations were fantastic. But he was not satisfied with that. He tried to do the very best he possibly could. It may very well have been the same with women. He was not interested in relative mediocrity.

Troels (born on the 14th December!)

[This message has been edited by Troels (edited April 19, 2003).]

[lysander]

Originally posted by Troels:
He did. I can't remember any exact words, but he was certainly aware that his pains and sorrows were among his sources for creating music.

And the women? It was very characteristic of Beethoven that he strove for excellence. He did so in his music. He could very easily pour lots of good music out. His improvisations were fantastic. But he was not satisfied with that. He tried to do the very best he possibly could. It

may very well have been the same with women. He was not interested in relative mediocrity.

Troels (born on the 14th December!)

[This message has been edited by Troels (edited April 19, 2003).]

It is my belief that Beethoven would dearly have liked a female companion, but he was too absorbed in his music and too emotionally 'high-charged' to sustain a relationship. All his emotions and energy was fired into his music.

It also has to be said that Beethoven was rather like Shelley in that he was in love with being in love, rather than the actual befuddling process of falling in love with someone which probably would have been bad for his art.
He is very much of course a romantic in this respect, and it may be that he read Goethe's great classic - The Sorrows of Young Werthe- which was all the rage in Europe in the 1780's about a young man who commits suicide over an unrequited love.
I am not suggesting that Beethoven would have taken any idealized passion that he had for a lady to such extremes, but there is no question that he was profoundly susceptable to this type of highflown feeling. We know that he entertained a passion for a number of highborn ladies, which of course was impossible because he was of too lowly a social station.

He basically wouldn't commit himself to a relationship because he wanted to protect his art.

-Of course he was waiting for me! -

[This message has been edited by lysander (edited April 19, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

We know that he entertained a passion for a number of highborn ladies, which of course was impossible because he was of too lowly a social station.

He basically wouldn't commit himself to a relationship because he wanted to protect his art.

Josephine Von Brunsvik was not unattainable in 1804 after the death of her first husband - her sister Therese wrote in 1846 "Why did not my sister J., as the widow Deym, accept him as her husband ? She would have been much happier than she was with St[ackelberg]. Maternal love caused her to forgo her own happiness".

It is clear that it was Josephine who was not prepared to let the relationship develop beyond friendship, and in today's langauge she made it clear that she didn't fancy him - "the pleasure of being with you could have been the greatest jewel in my life if you loved me less sensually." This rejection must have hurt Beethoven deeply and it was obviously also a difficult situation for Josephine who clearly wanted to maintain a friendship with him.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by lysander:

It is my belief that Beethoven would dearly have liked a female companion, but he was too absorbed in his music and too emotionally 'high-charged' to sustain a relationship. All his emotions and energy was fired into his music.

It also has to be said that Beethoven was rather like Shelley in that he was in love with being in love, rather than the actual befuddling process of falling in love with someone which probably would have been bad for his art.

Lysander,
I have been thinking of this since the last time this discussion came up back in December, and I quite agree with you. I have re-read Solomon since then and see nothing that conflict with this viewpoint, and I really like the comparison to Shelley, it explains much.
Regards, Gurn

(Also born December 14th!!)



[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited April 19, 2003).]

[mspaceray]

I have to agree with Lysander that Beethoven although in love with many women in his life at some point realized it just wasn't feasible,he had to be completely free to compose and while I still think LVB could have used some wifely help in his home I'm not sure that there would have been much in it for her,even some one as devoted as you Lysander I'm convinced Beethoven would have been an impossible companion.
Muriel

[orpheus]

Originally posted by mspaceray:
I have to agree with Lysander that Beethoven although in love with many women in his life at some point realized it just wasn't feasible,he had to be completely free to compose and while I still think LVB could have used some wifely help in his home I'm not sure that there would have been much in it for her,even some one as devoted as you Lysander I'm convinced Beethoven would have been an impossible companion.
Muriel

This thread reminds me of an anecdote concerning Berg.

Berg's lyric Suite contains a number of references to an affair he was having at the time with Hanna Fuchs. When someone suggested that this affair was the inspiration behind the piece, Webern retorted "on the contrary, Berg probably had the affair so that he could write the piece".

[lysander]

Originally posted by mspaceray:
I have to agree with Lysander that Beethoven although in love with many women in his life at some point realized it just wasn't feasible,he had to be completely free to compose and while I still think LVB could have used some wifely help in his home I'm not sure that there would have been much in it for her,even some one as devoted as you Lysander I'm convinced Beethoven would have been an impossible companion.
Muriel

I think Beethoven liked the idea of marriage, but deep down he was married to
his art, and his art was a jealous mistress.
Essentially, he was a musician above all and beyond all else.


Interestingly, when Hummel visited Beethoven on his sickbed, 'B' said to Hummel "you are a lucky fellow; you have a wife, she loves you - but I am but a poor bachelor"