Kleiber and the 7th symphony

[chopithoven]

Anybody who has listened Carlos Kleiber's and the Vienna Philharmonic recording of the 7th symphony (the one which comes together with the 5th in DG) please answer this question:

In the 4th measure before the end of the allegretto, in each of the two violin staves, it says "arco" after a series of pizzicato notes, but Kleiber does not respect this and keeps playing the violins pizzicato until the end. Furthermore, in the antepenultimate measures of the violas and basses it also says "arco" and Kleiber does not respect it. Why? Is there any corrected issue of the score which does not say "arco" in these measures? All the performances I have heard before do respect the "arco".



[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited March 23, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Please, an answer!

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Please, an answer!

Looks like no-one has the score of the 7th handy!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 26, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Looks like no-one has the score of the 7th handy!

I have the score and what Chopithoven says is correct - I'm afraid I don't have Kleiber's interpretation to hand.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have the score and what Chopithoven says is correct - I'm afraid I don't have Kleiber's interpretation to hand.

Then Kleiber is for sure incorrect. Heard only the first movement though from this recording myself.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chopithoven]

Well, it looks like my question was fruitless.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
Then Kleiber is for sure incorrect. Heard only the first movement though from this recording myself.

But why would he do this? It's impossible to think that the whole orchestra forgot to read the "arco" mark.

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
But why would he do this? It's impossible to think that the whole orchestra forgot to read the "arco" mark.

I have asked myself many times why conductors and performers do things that can only be described as stupid.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have asked myself many times why conductors and performers do things that can only be described as stupid.

It's really stupid what he did, indeed.

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
It's really stupid what he did, indeed.

I have a recording of the complete Beethoven piano sonatas where the music is riddled with additional (unscored) embellishments in almost every track, to bad effect in every case. VERY STUPID!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 28, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have a recording of the complete Beethoven piano sonatas where the music is riddled with additional (unscored) embellishments in almost every track, to bad effect in every case. VERY STUPID!

Who recorded these piano sonatas, Rod? I have often wondered why many musicians think they can improve on perfection and why they continue to do this. Also many conductors do the same thing with the tempo of certain movements. I heard a few days ago on the radio B's 5th Symphony by the Kansas Symphony and the first movement was taken much to fast as if they were rushing through it. The rest of it was taken at the right speed but when they go to fast it sounds like they can't wait to get it over with. Talk about taking liberties!

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Who recorded these piano sonatas, Rod?
Joy

This link will tell you everything:
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...son.cd.dg.html

Ironically these are authentic instrument recordings, by a number of pianists under the leadership of Malcolm Bilson. I wrote him a nasty email on the matter because he is an excellent pianist who should have known better. DO NOT buy this set (which is not at all cheap), two thirds of the performances are lame in any case.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 29, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
This link will tell you everything:
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...son.cd.dg.html

Ironically these are authentic instrument recordings, by a number of pianists under the leadership of Malcolm Bilson. I wrote his a nasty email on the matter because he is an excellent pianist who should have known better. DO NOT buy this set (which is not at all cheap), two thirds of the performances are lame in any case.

Thanks for the info and for the warning! Ironic how the article claims 'Beethoven as Beethoven would have heard'.

Joy

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Thanks for the info and for the warning! Ironic how the article claims 'Beethoven as Beethoven would have heard'.

Joy

Joy,
Perhaps there was a certain irony in that statement, given that the man was stone deaf... ;-))
Regards, Gurn
PS - Yes, Rod, thanks for the warning. If one only read the article, it surely sounds tempting.

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited March 30, 2003).]

[Kreutzer]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Anybody who has listened Carlos Kleiber's and the Vienna Philharmonic recording of the 7th symphony (the one which comes together with the 5th in DG) please answer this question:

In the 4th measure before the end of the allegretto, in each of the two violin staves, it says "arco" after a series of pizzicato notes, but Kleiber does not respect this and keeps playing the violins pizzicato until the end. Furthermore, in the antepenultimate measures of the violas and basses it also says "arco" and Kleiber does not respect it. Why? Is there any corrected issue of the score which does not say "arco" in these measures? All the performances I have heard before do respect the "arco".

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited March 23, 2003).]

Carlos' father Erich Kleiber also played that passage in the same way. Probably a variant found in an autograph score or set of parts. Being highly regarded conductors, they must have some form of authentification traced back to Beethoven's manuscripts.

[This message has been edited by Kreutzer (edited April 17, 2003).]