Beethoven's biographers

[PDG]

Surely, the inherent problem with any film account of a famous figure is that the film has, inevitably, but one main aim: to make money. Thus, bending or fabricating the facts is defended (in the film industry) as poetic licence. After all, doesn`t the public love, above all else, to be entertained?

`Immortal Beloved` was not made for Beethoven buffs - it was made for the cinema-going masses. The same can be said of `Amadeus`, a film which took just as many liberties with the truth. With `Immortal Beloved`, I think that Gary Oldman was adequate (I`d like to know how much research he did for his role); whatever your view on his believeability as Beethoven, I think that, if we`re honest with ourselves, NOBODY would have been good enough! I recall, about 15 years ago, the late Rod Steiger expressing the desire to portray the composer in a factual account-based film. Steiger, a dignified and thorough professional, would have done a stirling job, but, alas, the film never materialised.

There are, of course, other films based on Beethoven`s life, the earliest being as old as celluloid itself. I wonder if anyone has seen any of these other efforts. Perhaps this topic deserves a thread of its own - I`ll set one up shortly.

[Michael]

Before seeing the movie "Immortal Beloved", I read an article about the writer/director, Bernard Rose, in which he said that he had a startling solution to the identity of the "Beloved" and that it would be hard to prove him wrong.
I immediately assumed the worst and sat, perspiring, in the cinema, convinced that the "Immortal Beloved" would be shown to be a man and, if the film became as popular as "Amadeus", another myth would gain popular credence. I was vastly relieved when it was only Johanna van Beethoven!
I found the movie good enough except it showed B doing every possible thing except composing.
An interesting point is that, according to a documentary I saw, Gary Oldman did his own piano playing in some of the scenes, notably the (fictitious) first performance of the "Emperor". But then, in an interview, Oldman stated that he didn't study much about B for the part and that it was not his "scene" or words to that effect. How could someone who could play the music be so dismissive about the whole thing?
In case I open another can of worms, I must stress that my horror at the thought of Beethoven being portrayed as gay was because of its total inaccuracy. I have no problem with Tchaikovsky, etc.

Michael

[PDG]

Michael, many thanks.

From what you say, Gary Oldman has gone right down in my estimation - he wasn`t too high to begin with. What a twit!

I don`t understand why you worried that Beethoven might be shown as `gay` in the film; surely, it`s the same as him being shown as a woman, or as an alien, i.e. it`s complete rubbish! The very thought sends shivers down the spine!

And thankfully, it was ONLY poor old Johanna!! Oh dear! This poor, wretched woman whose only `crime` was to produce offspring before her famous brother-in-law; she deserves our full sympathy. Ludwig could not stand the fact that his kid brother had melted a woman`s heart before he had achieved as much, and his disgraceful tactics, against Johanna, in trying to win custody of Karl, should always remind us that Beethoven was a genius. A flawed genius. But humans by nature are flawed, so in our flawed thinking, we forgive him. Perhaps our sympathies are misplaced - especially where Johanna is concerned.

[~Leslie]

There were two other Beethoven movies
I have seen. One was a Disney film I saw long ago, the other is a children's film called "Beethoven lives Upstair's".

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
[B]Before seeing the movie "Immortal Beloved", I read an article about the writer/director, Bernard Rose, in which he said that he had a startling solution to the identity of the "Beloved" and that it would be hard to prove him wrong.
I immediately assumed the worst and sat, perspiring, in the cinema, convinced that the "Immortal Beloved" would be shown to be a man and, if the film became as popular as "Amadeus", another myth would gain popular credence. I was vastly relieved when it was only Johanna van Beethoven!
I found the movie good enough except it showed B doing every possible thing except composing.
An interesting point is that, according to a documentary I saw, Gary Oldman did his own piano playing in some of the scenes, notably the (fictitious) first performance of the "Emperor". But then, in an interview, Oldman stated that he didn't study much about B for the part and that it was not his "scene" or words to that effect. How could someone who could play the music be so dismissive about the whole thing?
In case I open another can of worms, I must stress that my horror at the thought of Beethoven being portrayed as gay was because of its total inaccuracy. I have no problem with Tchaikovsky, etc.

Michael

Their is a movie called Beethoven's Nephew. It was listed under 'gay interest' on an online auction. Of course I don't have the stomach to see it. I barely had the stmach for IB. How can you spend so much time making a movie and not do any research, and as you say play the music and not be affected by it? Can't be much human under Oldman's skin.

S

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge:
[B]The thing is, it's not foolishness! It would be foolish to claim something of Beethoven and not back it up, evidence of which we've already seen. Solomon doesn't do that, though. He provides a very firm framework for anything he concludes or theorizes.
Beethoven scholarship should not end with Thayer. It needs to be updated, revised; sometimes, revolutionized. We should keep open minds about potential facets to B.'s life previously unheard of, esp. if there is convincing and corroborating evidence.
I enjoyed Thayer very much. I glanced through Schindler and reminded myself he was a liar, so I paid his account no mind. It is hard to find a bio of Beethoven that does as much service to understand his personal life as others have done to understand his music. I'm glad I read and own a copy of Solomon because of the insights that he brought to light are refreshingly new.

This current debate harks back a little to the melee I spurred once with my assertion thatI enjoyed the film Immortal Beloved. I claimed that despite its many and sometimes unforgiveable flaws, the movie managed to bring a visible "realism" to a figure who we would never meet or see in life. The composer was not draped in purple prose. The movie made, IMHO and only IMHO, a wholehearted attempt to portray a tortured but exalted human, which he was. It did not misrepresent him as an infallible music-writing deity which is how I perceived him many years back. (To those who are seething with rage at the mere thought of the movie, I'm already well-aware of it.)

I know Beethoven's music. I respond to it on a deep level that I am comfortable with. I don't listen to his work with as much concentration as I once did because the essence of any one piece comes to me more easily now and the familiarity of his style continues to serve me as it did years back when I could listen on my CBC Radio 2 to a piece I'd never heard before in my life and know, just KNOW, it was a Beethoven (and then be proven right!). What I AM interested in is learning about the MAN. What made him tick? What did he fear? What did he aspire to? How did he measure his life and did he feel vindicated/venerated/content when it was all said and done? Beethoven's music was just as much about emotion & personality-- HIS emotion & personality-- as it was about writing a good melody or experimenting with the form. How can we really expect to respond on an emotional/spiritual level to Beethoven's music if we aren't willing to consider what his life could have been like?

It is because I want to attach the music to the man that I respond well to thought-out ideas on why Beethoven was who he was. At the end of the day, I get a fuller picture. I get the widescreen version instead of the cropped pan-and-scan home video. It makes the listening that much more valuable to me.

This is just how I am, I suppose. I enjoy understanding how the specific is influenced by the whole. My whole life has been spent in this sort of analytical mode, and I think it's served me well. How do you react to this?

Serge,

When I listen to B's music I am compelled to know more about the man. I have heard much, especially on edepot, about how the music stands alone. This is beyond my comprehension. I spend a chunk of my waking hours pondering the man and what made him tick.

I am certain he feared nothing. I found Solomon's book to be tear jerker and he made B seem like a mental case(granted, I think that was his point). No matter what life handed him, he could always find a way to cope which is ADMIRABLE. Antonie Brentano? Married to B's good friend, nervous, sickly, 4 kids? Hello!

IB was the same. It portrayed him as angry, drunken and pathetic. To me, this is crap.

Sincerely,

Suz

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] You may have found him Yummy, but he wasn't Beethoven ! I agree he was portrayed in far too negative a manner - where was his abundant humour ? To make B out to have been nothing but a miserable cantankerous old man (Oldman !! - I just couldn't resist it ! ) is absurd.

P.S Apologies once again for accidentally editing your message !!!

No need to apologize, Sir Sorry about the 'yummy' thing. I had a brief lapse.

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~Leslie:
[B]There were two other Beethoven movies
I have seen. One was a Disney film I saw long ago, the other is a children's film called "Beethoven lives Upstair's".

I think Beethoven Lives Upstairs is outstanding.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Suzie:

Their is a movie called Beethoven's Nephew. It was listed under 'gay interest' on an online auction. Of course I don't have the stomach to see it. I barely had the stmach for IB. How can you spend so much time making a movie and not do any research, and as you say play the music and not be affected by it? Can't be much human under Oldman's skin.

S[/B]

Actually, I have a copy of "Beethoven's Nephew" and it's not a bad movie. I don't know why the hell it would be listed under "gay interest" films as there is no indication of this whatsoever in it. It was made on a low budget, I should think, and the older Beethoven is played very well by an actor whose name escapes me. The only problem with it is that Beethoven can hear perfectly in some scenes and is stone deaf in others. I know he had some good days even towards the end of his life, but this was ridiculuous. It's still worth looking at as it is, in general, more accurate than "Immortal Beloved", (which wouldn't be difficult).
Michael

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
[B] Actually, I have a copy of "Beethoven's Nephew" and it's not a bad movie. I don't know why the hell it would be listed under "gay interest" films as there is no indication of this whatsoever in it. It was made on a low budget, I should think, and the older Beethoven is played very well by an actor whose name escapes me. The only problem with it is that Beethoven can hear perfectly in some scenes and is stone deaf in others. I know he had some good days even towards the end of his life, but this was ridiculuous. It's still worth looking at as it is, in general, more accurate than "Immortal Beloved", (which wouldn't be difficult).
Michael


Thanks for the review, Michael. I think I will try to find it.

Suz

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:

...And thankfully, it was ONLY poor old Johanna!! Oh dear! This poor, wretched woman whose only `crime` was to produce offspring before her famous brother-in-law; she deserves our full sympathy. Ludwig could not stand the fact that his kid brother had melted a woman`s heart before he had achieved as much, and his disgraceful tactics, against Johanna, in trying to win custody of Karl, should always remind us that Beethoven was a genius. A flawed genius. But humans by nature are flawed, so in our flawed thinking, we forgive him. Perhaps our sympathies are misplaced - especially where Johanna is concerned.

Well, I'm not so sure that Johanna was as blameless as you suspect. B's detestation of her was not on the ground that she treated Karl badly, for there is no evidence of this, but on the ground of her immoral behaviour, of which evidence does exist. Basically B believed she was a woman of 'easy virtue', and he was not alone in this respect. In fact Johanna gave birth to and illegitimate child during the court procedings, a point that Schindler mentions with utter disgust in his biography as just one example of her immoral behaviour. Basically having casual sex out of wed-lock was not approved of in those days! Especially by a moralist like Beethoven. I suspect B thought she may have also committed adultery to make matters worse, or even been involved in the death of his brother (unproven of course)!! All the same I would agree that J was all likely not a bad person by todays standards.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-04-2000).]

[~Leslie]

Maybe they should have called the movie:

"Immoral Beloved"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. LOL!~

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Maybe they should have called the movie:

"Immoral Beloved"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. LOL!~

The horror...the horror...stick to dressage Lol!!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[~Leslie]

Rod, I am a wordsmith, I can't help it.
What shocks me is......noone thought of this before. <g>
If I can make ppl laugh in this site, I will be very contented and less apt to flame the ever lovin........outta somebody.
But if you keep teasing me, I shall have no recourse but to start submitting my classical/avante jabberwocky......
and to work the cutting edge of moderation
by posting such controversial new age posts
as the healing effects of Beethoven & Mozart over AC/DC. BTW, don't forget yer earplugs,tonite....
protect that sense in you that should be more perfect than any other. Cheers~

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Rod, I am a wordsmith, I can't help it.
What shocks me is......noone thought of this before. <g>
If I can make ppl laugh in this site, I will be very contented and less apt to flame the ever lovin........outta somebody.
But if you keep teasing me, I shall have no recourse but to start submitting my classical/avante jabberwocky......
and to work the cutting edge of moderation
by posting such controversial new age posts
as the healing effects of Beethoven & Mozart over AC/DC. BTW, don't forget yer earplugs,tonite....
protect that sense in you that should be more perfect than any other. Cheers~

Whilst still on the subject of the 'Ravenwoman' I have found another alledged incidence of her behaviour that Beethoven got wind of that must have drove him out of his mind - namely he heard a rumour that she had offered herself 'for hire' at a ball in 1816. I don't know if the rumour has been substantiated, but we must judge Beethoven's behaviour on what he believed to be the truth and not on what subsequent research has discovered to be the truth. Bearing this, and the other things I have mentioned, in mind Beethoven's behaviour is understandable.

I left the concert last night in a good mood, but with my less than perfect hearing yet further impaired (no point going if I have to wear ear plugs). The music had a healing effect for the ethos behind it is sincere (in this case just having a good time drinking beer and 'being in the company of ladies'), and the quality of ideas and their execution is beyond comparison in this genre. This is what I ask from music of any kind.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-05-2000).]