Anyone got £3,000,000 spare!!!

[Peter]

LONDON (Reuters) - A manuscript of Beethoven`s Ninth Symphony, arguably the most important musical document to appear at auction, will go under the hammer next month, auctioneers Sotheby`s say.

The 575-page manuscript, complete with Ludwig van Beethoven`s frenzied revisions and comments in the margins, was expected to raise up to three million pounds when it goes on sale in London on May 22, the auctioneers said on Tuesday.

"It is an incomparable manuscript of an incomparable work, one of the highest achievements of man, ranking alongside Shakespeare`s Hamlet and King Lear," Stephen Roe, head of Sotheby`s manuscripts department, said in a statement.

"The manuscript, which was used by the printer for the first edition, contains music apparently unpublished and is the only full score of the symphony ever likely to come on the market."

The Ninth Symphony is now one of the best-known and best-loved pieces of music in the world and its final choral movement -- known as the Ode to Joy -- has been adopted by the European Union as its anthem.

Beethoven completed the symphony in 1824 and it was given its first triumphant performance in Vienna the same year.

The manuscript, which has been in private hands since it was printed, was prepared in 1826, three years after Beethoven`s trusted scribe had died. The scribe`s replacement evidently struggled to decipher his master`s spidery handwriting.

"Du verfluchter Kerl (You damned fool)," the composer wrote in one of many scribbled rebukes to the unfortunate replacement.

The manuscript was being offered on behalf of a charitable foundation and should fetch between two and three million pounds, said Sotheby`s.



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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

What an intresting article, Peter! No, can't say that I have that much money, (I just checked my bank account and I'm a few dollars short). I'll bet someone will come up with it though and buy it! 575 pages? That's incredible too, no wonder it might fetch up to that incredible amount. Glad they're not going to divide it up and try for more. I feel sorry for that poor scribe's replacement!

Joy

[orpheus]

That is interesting to know. What idiot wants to sell it I wonder?

Have you ever looked at a facsimile of the autograph. I looked at a facsimile of the 9th a few weeks ago for the first time. It's an amazing experience to see something you've known and loved for so many years in its stage of inception. You then realise that someone actually wrote that down - that Beethoven was in the end a human being like you and me - and that before that, it hadn't existed at all. Quite a moving experience really.

Of course, it's completely impossible to read - Beethoven's handwriting was awful!

[Chaszz]

A story from the New York Times has some interesting additional information on the manuscript.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/07/ar...ic/07MANU.html

[Joy]

Originally posted by orpheus:
[B]
Have you ever looked at a facsimile of the autograph. I looked at a facsimile of the 9th a few weeks ago for the first time.

B]

When I was visiting the San Jose Beethoven Museum they have several manuscripts and autographs. It is indeed a sight to see. I was fascinated looking at all these items. They also had some actual receipts and other items that were real, these were even more fascinating. Where did you see your facsimile
of the 9th?

Joy

[orpheus]

We have a facsimile of the 9th in the university library, plus quite a few other facsimiles as well as facsimiles of skethces and other stuff. I don't think these are very expensive. I can even issue them out and take them home! I should do that one day...

[lysander]

The full score of the ninth symphony bearing Beetoven's autograph inscription on the title page; "Grosse Sinfonie geschreiben fur die philarmonische Gesellschaft in London" (written for the Philharmonic Society, London) was first performed in London and conducted by Sir George Smart on March 21st, 1825.

The score can be viewed in the British Library, and placed beside it is Beethoven's tuning fork.
The score is mostly in the hand of Wenzel Rampl, one of Beethoven's least favourite copyists, and in consequence in addition to the dedication and movement titles it has corrections Beethoven's hand and almost every page.
It shows open at a passage early in the Choral finale; Brown crayon marks were made by Sir George Smart in preparing for the first London performance.

From the beginning it was clear that this work would have a special place in the Symphonic repertory. Needing extra care in it's preparation Sir George Smart was in doubt of his own ability to direct the first performance of such complex work, and only reluctantly agreed when it became clear that Beethoven would not come to London to conduct it himself. (Beethoven's deafness had in fact meant he needed help, of which he was apparently blissfully unaware, when he conducted the premiere in Vienna).
Smart had particular doubts the recitative-like passage for cellos and basses in the last movement and decided that they should be played as double-bass solos by the great virtuoso Domenico Dragonetti, a stalwart of the Philharmonic orchestra. Dragonetti's reaction on first seeing the score is givin in this letter. The directors were unable to agree to his high fees and the solos were instead played by Anfossi at the first London performance.
George smart's notes on his own set of programmes give the timing for the performance of 1 hour and 4 minutes.

The first reviews of the Symphony were very disparaging, in the then music Journal, The Harmonicon, even though the reviews are not signed, it is known that William Ayton was almost exclusively, the reviewer.
The poor reception of the Symphony in England is not surprising, considering its revolutionary format and unprecedented length.
We can only speculate that the mixed reaction to the new work was, at least partially, due to the poor performance resulting from insufficient rehearsal time. Also, the fact that control of the orchestra was split traditionally between the violinist leader and the conductor from the pianoforte must have been an additional difficulty.
In my opinion the Philharmonic Society were
were shell shocked at such a titanic genius such as Beethoven, and were used playing fairly predictable baroque compositions such as Mozart and Hydn.
The Society did not understand Beethoven at first.

[This message has been edited by lysander (edited April 09, 2003).]

[orpheus]

The facsimile I have seen is definitely in Beethoven's hand, and it is the full score. So the original must exist somewhere also. Anyone know where that is?

I think the 9th is a work of absolute genius. The opening itself is completely unprecedented, as far as I know - and must have been very avant garde for the time: starting with an open 5th on (what becomes)the nt, with string tremolos. It opens up an entirely different world, sweeping aside music history and setting a landscape for the awesome events that follow.


Hans Keller, disparigingly, said that Brucker took all the material he ever needed from that opening. Think about it. How many Bruckner symphonies start this way? ... most of them!

Does anyone know of a piece before the ninth that starts in this way? Perhaps an opera overture or something?


[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited April 10, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by orpheus:
I think the 9th is a work of absolute genius. The opening itself is completely unprecedented, as far as I know - and must have been very avant garde for the time: starting with an open 5th on (what becomes)the nt, with string tremolos. It opens up an entirely different world, sweeping aside music history and setting a landscape for the awesome events that follow.

I don't agree that it sweeps aside music history! Ok it is a highly original opening (as is the whole symphony) which had many less successful immitators (notably Bruckner), but it is totally within the tonal framework that was used from the 17th century up until the 20th century. Not only that - it is a classical symphony - with the form hugely expanded, but Beethoven had done that before with the Eroica. Beethoven expanded the classical forms and bought them to their peak.

The real revolutions in music history were the establishing of major-minor tonality over the modal system which made the Classical age possible and the subsequent dismantling of that system as represented by Debussy, Schoenberg, Stravinsky.

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'Man know thyself'

[orpheus]

I agree of course, what Schoenberg ahcieved was far more radical - although of course one could trace the roots of this in Wagner, and that in Liszt, Schumann and then back to Beethoven's experimental works like op.101.

I was perhaps overstating the case for Beethoven's 9th in that sense. But I didn't mean anything as specific as harmony or even form, in the sense I think it turns a page in history. In those respects, it's consistent with what went before. (although it's tonal ambiguity at the start I think is progressive). More in its boldness (and you are right the Eroica does this. Also the way the opening seems to set up a landscape, a primordial "sludge" out of which everything evolves. I don't know any precedent for this musically. I think that opening is startling in it's orginality. It perhaps seems less so now, because we take it for granted but also because it has been endlessly copied.

[Peter]

Originally posted by orpheus:

I was perhaps overstating the case for Beethoven's 9th in that sense. But I didn't mean anything as specific as harmony or even form, in the sense I think it turns a page in history. In those respects, it's consistent with what went before. (although it's tonal ambiguity at the start I think is progressive). More in its boldness (and you are right the Eroica does this. Also the way the opening seems to set up a landscape, a primordial "sludge" out of which everything evolves. I don't know any precedent for this musically. I think that opening is startling in it's orginality. It perhaps seems less so now, because we take it for granted but also because it has been endlessly copied.

Haydn had attempted this tonal ambiguity in some of his symphonies which begin in the 'wrong key' - a trick Beethoven used notably in the finale of the 4th piano concerto. Perhaps most comparable to the 9th though would be the orchestral opening of the Creation which creates a similarly vague atmosphere.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited April 10, 2003).]

[lysander]

Originally posted by orpheus:
The facsimile I have seen is definitely in Beethoven's hand, and it is the full score. So the original must exist somewhere also. Anyone know where that is?

I think the 9th is a work of absolute genius. The opening itself is completely unprecedented, as far as I know - and must have been very avant garde for the time: starting with an open 5th on (what becomes)the nt, with string tremolos. It opens up an entirely different world, sweeping aside music history and setting a landscape for the awesome events that follow.


Hans Keller, disparigingly, said that Brucker took all the material he ever needed from that opening. Think about it. How many Bruckner symphonies start this way? ... most of them!

Does anyone know of a piece before the ninth that starts in this way? Perhaps an opera overture or something?


[This message has been edited by orpheus (edited April 10, 2003).]

Most of the score autograph of the Ninth Symphony is located at the Berlin Library as is catalogued as "Autograph 2".

A few pages from the autograph score are located at the Beethoven-Haus in Bonn and the bibliotheque Nationale, in Paris.

There are also some manuscript parts written by Beethoven that have survived, located in Bonn and Berlin.

The score at the British Library is a copyist's score used for performance of the work in London 1825. The corrections are in Beethoven's hand.

In 1924, the Berlin Library published a facsimile of the autograph score, and this was reprinted in 1970.
The Beethoven Library also recently published all of it's Beethoven manuscripts on microfiche.
The British Library has one of these sources.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited April 10, 2003).]

[orpheus]

Beethoven's 1st Symphony also begins in the wrong key, and the opening motive of the 5th could be either e flat or c minor (although familiarity makes it impossible to hear it as anything but c min now I guess).

[Peter]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Beethoven's 1st Symphony also begins in the wrong key, and the opening motive of the 5th could be either e flat or c minor (although familiarity makes it impossible to hear it as anything but c min now I guess).

Absolutely - Beethoven learnt more from Haydn than he admitted!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by orpheus:
Beethoven's 1st Symphony also begins in the wrong key, and the opening motive of the 5th could be either e flat or c minor (although familiarity makes it impossible to hear it as anything but c min now I guess).

As well as the opening of the finale of the 3rd Symphony.