Conductor & Symphonies

[Poseidan73]

Firstly, i should mention that i'm just newly introduced to Beethoven (and classical music, actually - since last year).

I currently have Norrington's collection of B's symphonies. Although i like them, there are two personal grouses i have. Firstly, his interpretation of the 5ths first movement is faster than i'm used to hearing. Secondly, his wind section sometimes seems to overpower the strings.

I am not a purist, as i said, i have just seriously started collecting and learning since last year. Anyway, i saw Karajan's early 60's recording recently and am considering that. But i have read that his method works well with some symphonies (i have his third Eroica, btw and i like it), but some symphonies like the 4th and 6th suffers under his hand. I also know Simon Rattle is releasing a new set by the summer of this year.

Does anyone have any recommendation, keeping in mind that the minimum sound quality i'd go for is ADD?

Thanks.

Daniel

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
Firstly, i should mention that i'm just newly introduced to Beethoven (and classical music, actually - since last year).

I currently have Norrington's collection of B's symphonies. Although i like them, there are two personal grouses i have. Firstly, his interpretation of the 5ths first movement is faster than i'm used to hearing. Secondly, his wind section sometimes seems to overpower the strings.

I am not a purist, as i said, i have just seriously started collecting and learning since last year. Anyway, i saw Karajan's early 60's recording recently and am considering that. But i have read that his method works well with some symphonies (i have his third Eroica, btw and i like it), but some symphonies like the 4th and 6th suffers under his hand. I also know Simon Rattle is releasing a new set by the summer of this year.

Does anyone have any recommendation, keeping in mind that the minimum sound quality i'd go for is ADD?

Thanks.

Daniel

I purchased the Norrington set recently. I really like the fast movements at the faster pace, but I am not accustomed to the slower movements at a faster pace and am not sure I like that. One conductor I would recommend with Beethoven (and this may not meet your criteria) is Toscanini. Some of my earliest impressions of Beethoven symphonies came at his baton and to me they are the definitive recordings of the symphonies. Karajan's earlier set is a great one, too.

[Poseidan73]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
One conductor I would recommend with Beethoven (and this may not meet your criteria) is Toscanini.

Thanks for your suggestion. I have Toscanini's interp of Brahm's 1st. The sound quality bothers me a little, although it boasts ADD, a lot of static going on in the background.

But see what i found on guardian.co.uk:

Beethoven: Symphonies 1-9: Vienna Philharmonic/ Rattle et al

Andrew Clements
The Guardian

A quick glance at the CD catalogue is enough to confirm the feeling that a new cycle of the Beethoven symphonies, even one with the Vienna Philharmonic and Simon Rattle, is the last thing that the record industry needs right now. There are already hundreds of available versions, representing every performing style and vintage, and the choice of great interpreters is so luxurious that it inevitably raises the question: why should anyone invest in a new full-price cycle of these works? There are versions of the Eroica and the Pastoral conducted by Klemperer, the Fifth and the Seventh under Carlos Kleiber and Fürtwängler's epic Bayreuth account of the Ninth that can be acquired much more cheaply - not to mention the period-instrument sets by Norrington, Gardiner or Brüggen, as well as the hybrid interpretations by Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe and, for those who insist on up-to-date digital sound, the very different recent cycles by Abbado and Barenboim, both recorded in Berlin (with the Philharmonic and the Staatskapelle respectively) in the 1990s.

EMI has ensured that Rattle's set certainly looks the part; the packaging is luxurious, and includes substantial essays on the music bound in a hardback book. The recordings are taken from concerts in the Musikverein in Vienna last May, just a few months before Rattle took up his new post with the Vienna Philharmonic's arch-rival in Berlin. As you would expect from the venue, the sound is warm and resonant, but textures always remain clear, the clarity reinforced by Rattle's separation of the first and second violins to his left and right. These performances follow those on disc by Mackerras, Abbado and David Zinman in using the new Barenreiter editions of the scores, edited by Jonathan Del Mar and published in the 1990s, which strip away a century and a half's worth of textual inaccuracies and accretions to produce some startling changes of emphasis and perspective.

Like Harnoncourt before him, Rattle brings his experience of conducting Beethoven with both conventional and period-instrument bands into his interpretations, and the creative friction with the Vienna Philharmonic, an orchestra arguably more rooted in the 19th-century symphonic tradition than any in the world, is always fascinating. Generally, though, these are accounts in which period-instrument learning is worn lightly. Rattle has certainly pared down the usually sumptuous sound of the Vienna strings, and encouraged them to ration their vibrato, and such leanness does pay dividends, especially in the buoyancy and vigour of many of the textures in the First, Second and Fourth Symphonies. But there is also a real physicality about much of the playing, gutsy attacks (in the Eroica and the Seventh especially) and often bitingly incisive woodwind, yet Rattle is equally prepared to exploit the potential warmth of the VPO sound when appropriate in many of the slow movements.

Where Rattle does depart from his period-instrument peers is in the flexibility of his phrasing and his willingness to allow the music to find its own expressive pacing. These performances never seem self-consciously rooted in the Great Tradition, as Barenboim's Fürtwängler-like set with the Berlin Staatskapelle seems to be, but there is much about Rattle's approach that is quite markedly interventionist. His shaping of the music's paragraphs is not always convincing: the Pastoral never seems to flow as naturally as it can do, while the opening of the slow movement of the Ninth is very slow indeed and some of the gear changes in the finale of the same symphony are quite abrupt. This, though, is an account of the Ninth that really does begin by prefiguring Bruckner and end by echoing The Magic Flute - as Rattle has suggested in interview. It is in this work too that one notices some of the changes wrought in Del Mar's new edition of the score. The contra-bassoon's big moment in the finale, for example, is heard an octave lower than usual to provide a wonderful moment of grotesquery in the context of all that heaven- storming humanism.

Though there is not a single performance here that is likely to displace the standard favourites, the totality of the cycle adds up to more than its constituent parts, and no one who invests in this new set will regret it. They will certainly hear a great orchestra being challenged and encouraged to re-imagine music it thought it knew inside out, and experience interpretations that certainly take nothing on trust.

[TJJ]

As a single recommendation of the 5'th symphony I enjoy Carlos Kleiber and the Vienna Philharmonic. It's also coupled with the 7'th symphony. The recording is from the 1970's,so sound quality wise is excellent along with the performance.IMHO.

[Joy]

Originally posted by TJJ:
As a single recommendation of the 5'th symphony I enjoy Carlos Kleiber and the Vienna Philharmonic. It's also coupled with the 7'th symphony. The recording is from the 1970's,so sound quality wise is excellent along with the performance.IMHO.

I also have to agree with you on the Carlos Kleiber recordings of the 5th and 7th. One of my favourites for sure. I also have the complete 9 by Radio Symphony Orchestra Cond. Anton Nanut which I enjoy very much. But Kleiber brings out the 5th like I've never heard it before.

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
Thanks for your suggestion. I have Toscanini's interp of Brahm's 1st. The sound quality bothers me a little, although it boasts ADD, a lot of static going on in the background....

Check out the set by the Hanover Band on period instruments if you can find it, great value with the Missa Solemnis and Overtures thrown in. Good performances overall too, quite a few really great. Check out this link:
http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/main/1760a.html

The new Rattle set I can live without!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Rod:
Check out the set by the Hanover Band on period instruments if you can find it, great value with the Missa Solemnis and Overtures thrown in. Good performances overall too, quite a few really great.

Is Roy Goodman the conductor for that set? I like Goodman and the Hanover Band as well as any period-instrument ensemble. They show very well that period instruments can be exciting!

[Rod]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Is Roy Goodman the conductor for that set? I like Goodman and the Hanover Band as well as any period-instrument ensemble. They show very well that period instruments can be exciting!

They are MORE exciting, which is the whole point. The later recordings in the set were with Goodman, the first few by Monica Huggert

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Poseidan73]

Originally posted by Rod:
The new Rattle set I can live without!

Why is that?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
Why is that?

Read a rewiew which confirmed my own experience of Rattle's Beethoven. I heard the 1st Sym from the set for myself in HMV at the weekend, nothing special to justify the extra cash. The review said no6 was lame, as was R's rendition of it at the Proms, and highlighted a few other problems, but still went on to wholeheartedly recommend the set! Rattle has already recorded No5 before which I didn't like upon hearing. But don't rely too much on my opinion. You might love it!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[OboeKing]

On classic fm on Friday night, I listened to Simon Rattle's interpretation of the ninth, and I wasn't impressed. There were problems from the very start - you could hear extremely clearly everything that was going on within the orchestration from the very first note. This I did not like as it did not build the suspense up in the way I am accustomed to. It also meant that the crescendo leading to the dramatic statement of the first theme in D minor wasn't as long as it should have been. He pulled about with the tempo far too much for my liking, injecting Rits and Ralls that were not meant to be there.

The second movement, too was plagued with faults. The timpani were ridiculously exruciating to listen to. Also, the second theme in C major was practically inaudible, as the string accompaniment of c's in octaves was making itself the centre of attention. The horn's solo in the trio had a total absence of semiquavers, either that or he was playing them far to quickly for them to be heard in relation to the rest of the tune.

The adagio and finale both passed without problems, but there was absolutely nothing to get the listener interested or excited. Usually when I hear the ninth shivers are sent down my spine - this rendition did nothing for me.

My personal favourite recording of the ninth is from HMV Classics, with the Philharmonia Orchestra and Philharmonia Chorus conducted by Kurt Sanderling (HMV 5 72126 2)

[Poseidan73]

What about Kurt Masur? Does anyone have any comments about him?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
What about Kurt Masur? Does anyone have any comments about him?

I saw his farewell concert last year on PBS from the New York Philharmonic. I always thought he was quite good. Here's a site including a biography on him if you're interested
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Masur-Kurt.htm

Joy

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
What about Kurt Masur? Does anyone have any comments about him?

I quite like his Beethoven interpretations. I have the symphonies nos. 5 - 9 and I think he does as well as anyone else out there and better than most.

[Poseidan73]

Thanks for the help. My choral symphony and overtures CD is conducted by him and the Leipzig Gwandhaus. I just wanted to know how others thought he fared among the other conductors.