Beethoven and the piano

[Chaszz]

Here is an article, on Beethoven's relationship with the piano, by a composer/writer on music which some may find interesting, and which may also strike some sparks of disagreement here. Though I don't have any knowledge of dates and various makes and types of pianos, the writer seems to imply that 1. Beethoven was always dissatisfied sith the octave limitations of the pianos he used and 2. He may have been an early (shh!)
R------c.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/s...913644,00.html



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 19, 2003).]

[Joy]

Chaszz, I found this article very interesting! Lots of history on Beethoven and the piano. Thanks for sharing that with us. Also enjoyed the 'related articles' as well. Here's a little piece from one of them about Beethoven's 9th Symphony sketch being sold at Sotheby's last year.

"The symphony is "incontestably a landmark of our civilisation... one of the most influential of all classical orchestra works".
The symphony's haunting opening chords inspired Schubert, Brahms, Bruckner, and Mahler. Richard Wagner described the Ninth Symphony as the ultimate inspiration of all his work.
The manuscript was written on both sides of a large oblong sheet - using the same music paper as an 1817 string quartet, which was only rediscovered in 1999 and sold by Sotheby's. It has an inscription by the 19th century Beethoven expert Gustav Nottebohm, authenticating it as "the very first sketch for the Ninth Symphony".

Joy

[Poseidan73]

The article dealt with Beethoven & the piano. I like this excerpt:

"Yet the most illustrious composer-pianist of the recent past didn't please him much, either. Having heard Mozart a number of times, Beethoven told his pupil Czerny that Mozart "had a fine but choppy way of playing, no legato." What he meant was that Mozart was really a harpsichord player, not a pianist. And, by implication, a harpsichord rather than piano composer, too. In his terms, Beethoven was right."

The snippet Joy pulled out was from a link on the sale of some original first transcriptions of the Choral Symphony. That was a good read too.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Here is an article, on Beethoven's relationship with the piano, by a composer/writer on music which some may find interesting, and which may also strike some sparks of disagreement here. Though I don't have any knowledge of dates and various makes and types of pianos, the writer seems to imply that 1. Beethoven was always dissatisfied sith the octave limitations of the pianos he used and 2. He may have been an early (shh!)
R------c.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/s...913644,00.html



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 19, 2003).]

Well there are pianos, and then there are pianos! I would say Beethoven influenced the nature of the Viennese Classical piano, but it was the Romantic virtuosos who influenced the paino we have today, which descends from the English/French school of piano and became the prominent design across Europe from the circa 1860s onwards - Beethoven never liked the heavy actions of these pianos. He thought his Erard piano was unplayable and tried to have the whole action replaced with the lighter Viennese mechanism. Streicher and Bosendorfer were making Viennese actioned models for decades after B's death.

The article recounts the story where B tell's Streicher that 'often one hears a harp' when the piano was being played, but this was a reference to the manner of playing and not the nature of the piano.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[John Rasmussen]

Can anyone look at Beethoven's piano scores and doubt that he would have wanted the biggest, fullest, most dynamic piano available? I can't!

[Rod]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Can anyone look at Beethoven's piano scores and doubt that he would have wanted the biggest, fullest, most dynamic piano available? I can't!

I would say the modern piano is far from dynamic. The tone too thick and muddy in the mid to bass range, the action heavy and lacks fluidity (just listen to harpsichord music performed on a modern piano to realise how clunky it is) and is virtually incapable of an effective sharp attack and quick decay... I could go on but we have discussed this issue a 1000 times before and I have nothing new to add.

All I can say is that Beethoven never outstretched the best pianos at his disposal, in terms of keyboard span or any other technical requirement. The primary weakness was in their rather fragile construction. The fact as I see it is that it is almost irrelevant what Beethoven saw in his mind as the ideal piano, for the music he composed was written to be performed on the pianos as he knew them - albeit the best ones - and thus they are the most appropriate instruments to use as they are quite different to todays. Do not underestimate these old instruments John.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 21, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I would say the modern piano is far from dynamic. The tone too thick and muddy in the mid to bass range, the action heavy and lacks fluidity (just listen to harpsichord music performed on a modern piano to realise how clunky it is) and is virtually incapable of an effective sharp attack and quick decay... I could go on but we have discussed this issue a 1000 times before and I have nothing new to add.

All I can say is that Beethoven never outstretched the best pianos at his disposal, in terms of keyboard span or any other technical requirement. The primary weakness was in their rather fragile construction. The fact as I see it is that it is almost irrelevant what Beethoven saw in his mind as the ideal piano, for the music he composed was written to be performed on the pianos as he knew them - albeit the best ones - and thus they are the most appropriate instruments to use as they are quite different to todays. Do not underestimate these old instruments John.

Do not underestimate modern ones either - it is a huge generalisation and misrepresentation to imply that they are all the same.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Do not underestimate modern ones either - it is a huge generalisation and misrepresentation to imply that they are all the same.

I don't think anyone believes they are all the same, which is why we always argue about it. However it is clear the musical establishment believes the modern piano is a universal instrument to be used for all keyboard music from all eras, and in all cases to better effect than the original models the music was written for. In this they are in gross error.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 21, 2003).]

[SR]

>>>I would say the modern piano is far from dynamic. The tone too thick and muddy in the mid to bass range, the action heavy and lacks fluidity (just listen to harpsichord music performed on a modern piano to realise how clunky it is) and is virtually incapable of an effective sharp attack and quick decay... I could go on but we have discussed this issue a 1000 times before and I have nothing new to add.

All I can say is that Beethoven never outstretched the best pianos at his disposal, in terms of keyboard span or any other technical requirement. The primary weakness was in their rather fragile construction. The fact as I see it is that it is almost irrelevant what Beethoven saw in his mind as the ideal piano, for the music he composed was written to be performed on the pianos as he knew them - albeit the best ones - and thus they are the most appropriate instruments to use as they are quite different to todays. Do not underestimate these old instruments John.<<<


Could not agree more with your statements. If the opportunity presents I ALWAYS choose the pianoforte recording. It is a different instrument than the modern piano. The modern instrument makes runs smear in comparison to vintage instruments. I have absolutly no doubt that if the 9' Bosendorfer Imperial was the standard instrument in Beethovens or Mozarts day both composers music would not be written the same. They would write for the tonality of the larger tonally slopier instrument.

Regards

Steve

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
[B I have absolutly no doubt that if the 9' Bosendorfer Imperial was the standard instrument in Beethovens or Mozarts day both composers music would not be written the same. They would write for the tonality of the larger tonally slopier instrument.

[/B]

Even though Beethoven was almost totally deaf when he wrote the last sonatas?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Even though Beethoven was almost totally deaf when he wrote the last sonatas?

You know I too believe the music would have been written differently Peter. I suggest Beethoven's deafness could have had no influence on his considerations for the physical characteristics of the keyboard and its action whilst composing. I presume in his 'mind's ear' he heard the sound of the pianos he knew when his hearing was better.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 25, 2003).]

[Joy]

If he could compose while being deaf and hearing the music in his head, why wouldn't his piano pieces sound different or be written differently with a different piano as well. I think they might have.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited March 25, 2003).]

[SR]

Originally posted by Peter:
Even though Beethoven was almost totally deaf when he wrote the last sonatas?

Deaf or not it's of no significance. My comment refered to the modern Bosendorfer being the dominant instrument of the 18th and early 19th century. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that Beethoven would have written music of a slightly different character to make better use of that instrument.

The works written while deaf would also be changed in that his memory would be of that bigger, darker, longer sustaining instrument rather than the memory that he actually carried of the crisp bright pianoforte.


Steve

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
If he could compose while being deaf and hearing the music in his head, why wouldn't his piano pieces sound different or be written differently with a different piano as well. I think they might have.

Joy

There are so many what ifs that you can go on ad infinitum speculating - lets be thankful for what we have!


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

There are so many what ifs that you can go on ad infinitum speculating - lets be thankful for what we have!

I will be most thankful Peter if you buy me an original Graf piano from circa 1824.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin