Understanding Beethoven's expressive and emotional language, in his music.

[lysander]

A little attempt at philosophizing
with the Beethoven's 9th symphony and the late string quartets in mind, as they in particular are difficult to analyse.

If we cannot follow Beethoven's music all the way, or if we do not clearly perceive the whole picture, we are at least free to imagine it , he makes us feel that we are at least free to do so.

For he is but reaching out and beyond mankind, trying to see what he can of the infinite and it's immensities....throwing back to us what he can, conscious that of he would contemplate the 'greater' he must wrestle with the 'lesser', even though it dims an outline, that he must struggle if he would hurl back anything--even a broken fragment of Truth to examine and perchance in it find a germ of some part of Truth; conscious at all times, of the futility of his effort and it's messasge, conscious of it's elusivness but ever hopeful for it, and confident that it's foundation, if not medium is somewhere near the eventual and "absolute good" the divine TRUTH underlying all life!

Through his music, Beethoven gives us the reality of thought and necessity of it's freedom, so that the narrowest mind can be open!


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Well, that's done my head in,
Now for a nice strong cup of coffee.


I shall be interested in the view of other members.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited July 05, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

Through his music, Beethoven gives us the reality of thought and necessity of it's freedom, so that the narrowest mind can be open!

Nice sentiment but I doubt that the narrowest mind is receptive to Beethoven. It is also surpising the number of people of high intelligence I have met who do not respond to Beethoven or classical music in general. I have often pondered this one and can only conclude that it is on a spiritual level rather than the physical mind that great music has its deepest effect.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Exactly! I agree that it's the spiritual level rather than the intelligence level that classical music moves certain people.
And let's not forget the soul as well, where the music touches your very soul.

[heidi]

Originally posted by Peter:
Nice sentiment but I doubt that the narrowest mind is receptive to Beethoven. It is also surpising the number of people of high intelligence I have met who do not respond to Beethoven or classical music in general. I have often pondered this one and can only conclude that it is on a spiritual level rather than the physical mind that great music has its deepest effect.

I agree with you on this. As an example, I feel more uplifted and closer to God when I listen to beautiful classical music (especially Beethoven) than I do attending church. Beethoven's music affects me I a way I can not explain. I works on me like a drug, a good one, and is quite therapeutic. Since I have been listening to B and others I find myself much more calm and rational. Being a busy mother it helps. I could never thank him enough for making my life a little nicer.

[lysander]

Beethoven's music is for all mankind, even the narrow minded, and for the highly intelligent, as everyone has a soul and a spiritual awareness.

Beethoven had quoted that "From childhood on my heart and my soul were full of tender feelings of goodwill; From childhood on I learnt to Love virtue; From my earlier childhood my zeal to serve our poor and suffering humanity,---my greatest happiness and pleasure have been able to do something for mankind"

That is precisely what he did through his great works.

Beethoven music is intellectual, and deeply spiritual, a gift of Love for humankind.
He was concerned for the contrasting polarities of the human condition. The joy's and the sorrows, heightened emotion, we can feel elation and we can feel sadness.
In order for Beethoven's superior genius to gain a deep awareness of the entire spectrum of the human condition, it is necessary for him to possess an enhanced perceptiveness.
Music in which the soul, freeing itself from all earthly tribulation, rising up towards the eternal.

I always experience spiritual elevation, and emotion, when listening to 'B's music.
I just let Beethoven take me there, but then I do not want to know about this world.


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited March 21, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

Beethoven's music is for all mankind, even the narrow minded, and for the highly intelligent, as everyone has a soul and a spiritual awareness.

True, but most are unreceptive to it - far deafer in reality than Beethoven ever was.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

Originally posted by Peter:
True, but most are unreceptive to it - far deafer in reality than Beethoven ever was.

I know all to well what you are saying Peter, as to the unreceptive it is their sad loss.
But surely no one can be unreceptive to something which is in itself the very definition of humanity, the profound depth, the yearning and struggle of the human soul, which Beethoven's music supremely and beautifuly communicates.
The problem is that some people are simply not exposed to these higher cultural
influences, or perhaps do not make the

effort to find out. After all trash culture existed in Beethoven's time, but it


was not all pervasive as today, and the
classical music status was more assured
The "poor in spirit" are the very people that Beethoven really felt for and wanted to reach out and help them.
For the spiritualy and culturally bereft there only hope is Beethoven.

[This message has been edited by lysander(edited March 22, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by lysander (edited March 22, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

For the spiritualy and culturally bereft there only hope is Beethoven.

Not the only hope - it can be found in other composers (for me particularly Palestrina, Bach, Mozart and Chopin), great art, literature and meditation also.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by lysander:


Beethoven had quoted that "From childhood on my heart and my soul were full of tender feelings of goodwill; From childhood on I learnt to Love virtue; From my earlier childhood my zeal to serve our poor and suffering humanity,---my greatest happiness and pleasure have been able to do something for mankind"

That is precisely what he did through his great works.

Beethoven music is intellectual, and deeply spiritual, a gift of Love for humankind.
He was concerned for the contrasting polarities of the human condition. The joy's and the sorrows, heightened emotion, we can feel elation and we can feel sadness.

I always experience spiritual elevation, and emotion, when listening to 'B's music.
I just let Beethoven take me there,


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited March 21, 2003).]

Nice quote and it seems Beethoven did accomplish just that. I agree with you when you experience spiritual elevation and emotion. So do I. His music seems to life you up and give you some strength. To me he is very inspirational.

Joy

[lysander]

Originally posted by Peter:
Not the only hope - it can be found in other composers (for me particularly Palestrina, Bach, Mozart and Chopin), great art, literature and meditation also.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Peter, I quoted Beethoven I suppose because we were on that subject.
I also consider Palestrina, Mozart, and especially Thomas Tallis, great art and literature.
I particulary love, Spem in Alium, by Thomas Tallis, it is like angels transporting you to the gates of heaven.
I went to a live performance of this at Canterbury Cathedral...an unforgettable experience.
The prayer
is amongst the most beautiful;-

I Have never placed my hope
in any other than you, O God of Isreal,
who can show both anger and graciousness,
and absolve all the sins
of suffering man.
Lord God, creator of heaven and earth,
be mindful of our humiliation.

Sung in Latin ofcourse.
As I have learnt it.

I always think beethoven would have like this prayer.

My husband and I both love Palestrina, MISSA PAPAE MARCELLI.

I understand that Mozart transcribed it for piano, and the pope banned it. because it was so sacred that it could only be played in the Vatican.

We have all these collections.

We enjoy High Mass in Latin , at Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, in Farm Street, Mayfair. You may have heard of it.

I often think it very sad that this wonderful polyphony only falls on the ears of the converted.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Not the only hope - it can be found in other composers (for me particularly Palestrina, Bach, Mozart and Chopin), great art, literature and meditation also.

Very true that it can be found in other composers as well. You have named some of the best. Also art, literature, etc. you can find this in all of these. Isn't it amazing how music (certain music anyway) can really lift you up and make you feel better. It really has a power that effects you. Wonderful stuff. I don't know what we would all do without it especially at times in our lives when we need it the most.

Joy

[lysander]

Absolutely Joy!

Where would we draw comfort in times of need. I cannot imagine life without it.
This wonderful music was divinely inspired and is a gift to us.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited March 22, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:
I also consider Palestrina, Mozart, and especially Thomas Tallis, great art and literature

Nice to hear you're a fan of the MISSA PAPAE MARCELLI - wonderful isn't it! I didn't know about the Mozart connection or the Pope's reaction. Also interesting that you mention Tallis. It is a shame that much of the 16th century music is neglected and it deserves more attention from a wider audience - as part of my music degree I studied the English and Italian Madrigal composers - Byrd, Gibbons, Wilbye, Marenzio, Orlando Lassus and Gabrielli just to name a few of these great musicians.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited March 22, 2003).]

[lysander]

Originally posted by Peter:
Nice to hear you're a fan of the MISSA PAPAE MARCELLI - wonderful isn't it! I didn't know about the Mozart connection or the Pope's reaction. Also interesting that you mention Tallis. It is a shame that much of the 16th century music is neglected and it deserves more attention from a wider audience - as part of my music degree I studied the English and Italian Madrigal composers - Byrd, Gibbons, Wilbye, Marenzio, Orlando Lassus and Gabrielli just to name a few of these great musicians.

Yes, the Palestrina MASS is rather sumptuous isn't it, particularly the Kyrie.
Also Allegri, Miserere.
Reminds me of when I lived near Canterbury Catherdral, and listened to the choir singing these pieces at evensong, it was like a heavenly anthem reaching skyward, floating ever upwards.
It is particulary sad in the MISSA PAPAE MARCELLI, as he was only Pope for three weeks and died.

Lassus , Gabrielli, Byrd are amongst our collection.

I envy your music degree.

[lysander]

Originally posted by lysander:

Yes, the Palestrina MASS is rather sumptuous isn't it, particularly the Kyrie.
Also Allegri, Miserere.
Reminds me of when I lived near Canterbury Catherdral, and listened to the choir singing these pieces at evensong, it was like a heavenly anthem reaching skyward, floating ever upwards.

It is particulary sad in the MISSA PAPAE MARCELLI, as he was only Pope for three weeks and died.

Lassus , Gabrielli, Byrd are amongst our collection.

I envy your music degree.