Beethoven scholars unite !

[Peter]

I've had an email from the dailywebaddress which is for elementary schools - every week they do an interview and in Feb it is Beethoven week - they've asked us to participate and answer 6 questions - so I thought I'd ask everyone here for there opinions - Any 'lurkers' (I know we have plenty of members who have yet to emerge from the shadows!) are welcome to post, even if it is just to tell us your favourite Beethoven work (an impossible question to answer !)

Dailyweb: What would you like people to remember about Beethoven ?

Dailyweb : What is your favorite piece of Beethoven music ?

Dailyweb : Would you please recommend a book for the students ?

Dailyweb : How did Beethoven influence music ?

Dailyweb : Why is music important to education ?

Dailyweb: What other interesting information would you like to share with the students ?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Rod]

I'm no scholar of music but here's something...

Dailyweb: What would you like people to remember about Beethoven ?
On more than one occasion, presons who knew Beethoven said of him - Beethoven the composer was great, but Beethoven the man was greater.

Dailyweb : What is your favorite piece of Beethoven music ?
When all the fruit in the basket looks so enticing, which one do you eat first?

Dailyweb : Would you please recommend a book for the students ?
The Master Musicians - Beethoven, by Denis Mathews is a good all round examination of his life and works.

Dailyweb : How did Beethoven influence music ?
Became the benchmark for future generations of composers.
Used as an excuse for the excesses of the Romantic era. Blamed for the excesses of the Romantic era.

Dailyweb : Why is music important to education ?
Creative pastimes such as music can only be a positive influence on children, if taught and promoted in the correct manner.

Dailyweb: What other interesting information would you like to share with the students ?
For added insight into Beethoven's mindset, read what was probably his favourite book, Homer's Odyssey.

Rod



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Well I'm going to stick my neck out and attempt these in the hope that others might come up with more sensible replies than I can manage!!

Dailyweb: What would you like people to remember about Beethoven ?
That he suffered and finally triumphed - A true testament to the human spirit.

Dailyweb : What is your favorite piece of Beethoven music ?
With so much first class music, Beethoven has made it impossible for me to choose - this is another mark of his greatness.

Dailyweb : Would you please recommend a book for the students ?
Beethoven - H.C.Robbins Landon - an account by those who knew him - entertaining.

Dailyweb : How did Beethoven influence music ? By setting impossibly high standards that sent the next generation of composers into dismay !

Dailyweb : Why is music important to education ?
Studies have shown that children exposed to classical music at an early age tend to perform better - If you stimulate a child with the best, you're bound to get more positive results than if you subject them to junk !

Dailyweb: What other interesting information would you like to share with the students ?
Listen to the music - you'll learn more from that than any text book !


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Serge]

1.) What to remember about B.? That his was the most emotionally-moving and emotionally-basic music ever composed, borne directly out of the unusual tragedies of his entire life.

2.) Favorite B. composition? Impossible to decide. But if I had to choose just one, Symphony in D minor, op. 125.

3.) A good book? Any of the previously-mentioned will do; for more personal and in-depth info, though, choose Solomon's "Beethoven". A good coffeetable book is the Beethoven-Haus produced bicentennial tome, "L.V. Beethoven, 1770-1970. Hard to come by these days, I believe.

4.) B.'s influence in music? The first composer to truly make music speak of the human condition.

5.) Why is musical education important? Throughout all history, music had been important to human development. A grounding in music allows children to fully appreciate one of the most instantly enjoyable pleasures of life.

6.) Other good-to-know info?
a.) Beethoven's favorite composer was Handel
b.) Beethoven could not calculate beyond addition
c.) Beethoven came from a solid "middle class" family contrary to much of the popular opinion
d.) B. was born into an auspicious political climate where the French Revolution and subsequent political upheavals spurred Beethoven to develop the latent emotional and somewhat political role music had inside of itself.

Maybe this last is a little too complex for young kids, but I hope this helps!

[Chris]

Here's my two cents:

Dailyweb: What would you like people to remember about Beethoven ?
Well, you'd have to make up your own mind about this, but I'd like him to be remembered as the greatest composer ever.

Dailyweb : What is your favorite piece of Beethoven music ?
Instead of taking the easy way out and saying it is impossible to decide (even though it is), I'd have to say that right now it is Op. 53 (the "Waldstein" piano sonata).

Dailyweb : Would you please recommend a book for the students ?
All of the mentioned books are good, but I doubt they are appropriate for students of that age. I really don't know of any that are.

Dailyweb : How did Beethoven influence music ?
He expanded the forms of the day, and also expanded melody and harmony in such a way that seemingly odd chords made perfect sense the way he used them.

Dailyweb : Why is music important to education ?
It teaches a little bit of everything (History, foreign language, etc.). Playing music helps coordination and concentration develop, and that helps in all other subjects.

Dailyweb: What other interesting information would you like to share with the students ?
It's easy to forget this sometimes when you listen to his music, but remember that Beethoven actually went deaf and composed some of the world's greatest music in that condition!

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Michael]

1.What to remember about Beethoven: He was the first composer consciously to view his work as an art-form and not a commodity.

2. My favourite composition: Ouch! Well, today it's the first of the middle quartets, Opus 59, No. 1. But that's just today - there are hundreds of others.

3. A good book: "Beethoven - Impressions by his Contemporaries" - Dover Publications, New York. Filled with anecdotes from people who actually knew or met him.

4. Beethoven's influence on music: Over a period of about twenty-five years, he changed the face of music in many ways, expanding the classical forms, compressing the classical forms - reaching forward to the twentieth century and backwards to the baroque era ...... You name it!

5.Why music is important in education: It's important in many ways.... I could mention the spiritual aspect (which may get a few laughs in the year 2000), so let's just say that music can take away the blues! It's also supposed to make you more intelligent, and I think it achieves that by making people stretch their attention-spans to beyond three minutes.

6. Other good to know information:
1. He is believed to have had a lovely smile, with fine white teeth - but you won't find this in any portrait.
2. In spite of his stupendous natural gifts, he must have been the hardest-working composer in the history of music, continually altering, scratching-out, re-arranging, until the finished piece was as good as he could possibly make it. Judging by the results, he didn't do too badly.
3. He had an unusual way of composing - by means of sketch-books. This has been put down to his deafness, but apparently he was working in this fashion long before he lost his hearing.
4. He has a reputation for being a "slow" composer but he could write quickly enough when necessary. And he was probably the greatest improviser of all time - and what is that but composing on the spot? If they only had tape-recorders then!

Hope this is of some use.
Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 11-27-2000).]

[PDG]

Gosh! Well, for what it`s worth.....
1) I think that Beethoven should be primarily remembered as, arguably, humanity`s greatest-ever mind, who overcame near-insurmountable odds to achieve the greatest miracles in music;
2) There are far too many favourite works, but for anyone starting out, I would suggest listening to anything adorned with a nickname, or the 5th Symphony;
3) At such a young age, don`t bother with the books - just listen to the music!;
5) Music is important in education because (a) it aids concentration, (b) it develops the universal language which is music, and (c) despite the rigidity of its form, it allows for free expression, and can be an eternal source of joy;
4) Beethoven`s influence in music is that he expanded all known popular forms to such an intimidating extent that, even today, 200 years on, composers must carry the burden of his genius when putting pen to paper;
6) Other thoughts on the subject?...
Beethoven was not well-educated academically; he was generally scruffy, uncouth and self-opinionated. But he fulfilled what he always knew to be his destiny: his unassailable fame as the greatest composer that the world has ever known.
[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 11-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 11-28-2000).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
[B]

c.) Beethoven came from a solid "middle class" family contrary to much of the popular opinion
/B]

It is somewhat contrary to everything I've read. A solid midle class family is one that is stable and comfortably well-off, with one, perhaps two good income earners. Neither of B's parents could be described as fitting the above situation.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

According to Solomon, one of the most thorough Beethoven scholars, Beethoven's grandfather was court kapellmeister making 400 thalers a year, enough to start a winemaking business and be a moneylender. His son, Johann, was court tenor making eventually 210 thalers/year, sufficient to raise a family in Bonn and typical income for a court musician in Germany at the time. By the time Beethoven started working at 14 and adding his wages to the pot, the household income was 450 thalers/year. Johann also had inherited his dad's considerable estate and monies owing; one loan of which brought in 1000 florins, sufficent for a family to live on for two years. Whatever happened to Johann after Ludwig's birth, there is no doubt Beethoven was born into a "middle class" family. You really ought to read Solomon's "Beethoven", Rod, if you haven't already.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
According to Solomon, one of the most thorough Beethoven scholars, Beethoven's grandfather was court kapellmeister making 400 thalers a year, enough to start a winemaking business and be a moneylender. His son, Johann, was court tenor making eventually 210 thalers/year, sufficient to raise a family in Bonn and typical income for a court musician in Germany at the time. By the time Beethoven started working at 14 and adding his wages to the pot, the household income was 450 thalers/year. Johann also had inherited his dad's considerable estate and monies owing; one loan of which brought in 1000 florins, sufficent for a family to live on for two years. Whatever happened to Johann after Ludwig's birth, there is no doubt Beethoven was born into a "middle class" family. You really ought to read Solomon's "Beethoven", Rod, if you haven't already.

If the household was so well-off why was B's education halted, and instead was pressed into full-time work at the age of only 11 for a few florins? This is not the behaviour I would associate with the typical middle class. By the age of 18 B was basically running the household, having to petition half of his alcoholic fathers salary lest they all starve. Whatever J inherited it must have been squandered pretty quick. I did not mean that B was living in destitution, but if this equates to a typical 'solid middle-class' scenario, I myself must be a real toff! You may call me Lord Rod!!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

Whatever happened to family's fortunes during the years AFTER Beethoven's birth bears no relation the the fact he was BORN into a fairly well-off family.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
Whatever happened to family's fortunes during the years AFTER Beethoven's birth bears no relation the the fact he was BORN into a fairly well-off family.

Fair enough, it seems I mis-interpreted your original statement, and thus we have been discussing somewhat at cross-purposes. But regarding Solomon, I have read only parts of the biography, but all of his Beethoven Essays which I was not impressed with. Half of them I could have done a better assessment myself. There are many other interesting sources of info. Whilst whe're on this subject I noticed a new biography by Barry Cooper which I presume will now be the most up-to-date source of info. Frankly I'm more interested in the biography as it relates to compositions these days (and Solomon's musical assessment is worth no more than anyone's here), mere domestic issues are now of secondary importance. I think we all have a good idea of B's lifestyle by now without picking points about the Immortal Beloved for example.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Thank you all very much for your contributions - I have selected various ideas from them and posted off the answers to the Dailyweb - They have responded saying The Beethoven Reference Site and the interview will be featured in Feburary - I'll post the address then for those who wish to see it.

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'Man know thyself'