Autograph or first editions?

[Chris]

Last night, I sat down to play some Op. 119 bagatelles, and I started thinking about whether it would be more appropriate to play what is in the autograph or what is in the first editions. The differences are clearly marked in my Urtext edition of the Complete Bagatelles, but I'm not really sure which one is "better" to play. For example, in No. 4, there is a D# in the second ending (measure eight, I think) in the left hand. Only the autograph has a trill on that note - should it be played? My initial impulse is to play what is in the autograph, but I'm not sure.

What do you all think?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
Last night, I sat down to play some Op. 119 bagatelles, and I started thinking about whether it would be more appropriate to play what is in the autograph or what is in the first editions. The differences are clearly marked in my Urtext edition of the Complete Bagatelles, but I'm not really sure which one is "better" to play. For example, in No. 4, there is a D# in the second ending (measure eight, I think) in the left hand. Only the autograph has a trill on that note - should it be played? My initial impulse is to play what is in the autograph, but I'm not sure.

What do you all think?

I happened today to be reading an article on the conductor Nikolaus Harnoncourt, who is an early music exponent and also is leading a the Vienna Philharmonic on a U.S. tour currently. He is decidedly in favor of going to the autograph version of a composition whenever possible.

Parenthetically, he also dismissed the whole last 50 years of orchestral performance as being much too concerned with exact simultaniety in execution, for he thinks interpretation and feeling suffer. And he favors older instruments, which are more difficult to play and which may be physically unable to play some notes properly, as superior to modern intruments. In the difficulties of playing the older ones, he thinks the performer achieves beauties which are unreachable with the modern ones. This applies to instruments made during the 19th c. as well as to ones made during the 18th. Each to its own time.

I wonder if a Romantic authentic instrument movement will begin, where only pianos made during the mid-nineteenth century will be considered suitable for playing that period's music. Reading about the Vienna Philharmonic, I guess it could be considered a Romantic authentic instruments orchestra, as John Rasmussen remarks on the site where I read this article. There are many 19th c. intruments in the sections. Supposedly the sound is quite different from other first-rank orchestras.

Chris, sorry to have wandered so far from your topic.

Chaszz





[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited March 04, 2003).]

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Chris:
Last night, I sat down to play some Op. 119 bagatelles, and I started thinking about whether it would be more appropriate to play what is in the autograph or what is in the first editions. The differences are clearly marked in my Urtext edition of the Complete Bagatelles, but I'm not really sure which one is "better" to play. For example, in No. 4, there is a D# in the second ending (measure eight, I think) in the left hand. Only the autograph has a trill on that note - should it be played? My initial impulse is to play what is in the autograph, but I'm not sure.

What do you all think?

Autograph whenever possible. Publishers make mistakes, especially when trying to read Beethoven's near-illegible hand. I would say, without remembering the piece well, to do the trill.

[Chris]

That was what I had thought, as I said, but are we certain the changes were not at the request of Beethoven?

[Chris]

The fact that some of them simply cannot be simple errors on the part of the publisher makes me wonder even more (i.e. completely different tempo indications).

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited March 04, 2003).]

[Peter]

My Associated Board edition is based on the autograph but also refers to 1st & 2nd editions. For example, no.3 of Op.119 has no dynamics marked in the autograph. The D# trill you refer to in no.4 is in my edition and I play it!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
My Associated Board edition is based on the autograph but also refers to 1st & 2nd editions. For example, no.3 of Op.119 has no dynamics marked in the autograph. The D# trill you refer to in no.4 is in my edition and I play it!

No dynamics at all for No. 3? I see two fortes and two pianos marked in my copy and no note that it was any different in the autograph.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
No dynamics at all for No. 3? I see two fortes and two pianos marked in my copy and no note that it was any different in the autograph.

Well according to my edition there were no dynamics marked in the autograph for no.3. The piano at bars 1 & 54 comes from the 2nd issue of the 1st complete edition 'Trifles for the Piano Forte' (Clementi 1823).

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I happened today to be reading an article on the conductor Nikolaus Harnoncourt, who is an early music exponent and also is leading a the Vienna Philharmonic on a U.S. tour currently. He is decidedly in favor of going to the autograph version of a composition whenever possible.

Parenthetically, he also dismissed the whole last 50 years of orchestral performance as being much too concerned with exact simultaniety in execution, for he thinks interpretation and feeling suffer. And he favors older instruments, which are more difficult to play and which may be physically unable to play some notes properly, as superior to modern intruments. In the difficulties of playing the older ones, he thinks the performer achieves beauties which are unreachable with the modern ones. This applies to instruments made during the 19th c. as well as to ones made during the 18th. Each to its own time.

I wonder if a Romantic authentic instrument movement will begin, where only pianos made during the mid-nineteenth century will be considered suitable for playing that period's music. Reading about the Vienna Philharmonic, I guess it could be considered a Romantic authentic instruments orchestra, as John Rasmussen remarks on the site where I read this article. There are many 19th c. intruments in the sections. Supposedly the sound is quite different from other first-rank orchestras.

Chris, sorry to have wandered so far from your topic.

Chaszz

Concerning which edition, my instinct would be to go with the autograph to avoid errors, but I suppose these would not contain any later changes of mind from Beethoven.

Concerning Harnoncourt, of course he is correct in my opinion about the superiority of the older instruments, but of course you still have to interpret correctly!

About Romantic music in this respect, I have a recording of Mendelson's Violin Concerto on authentic intruments but the difference is far less radical than that of Beethoven's which is on the same disk. There are not many authentic piano recordings from the Romantic era from my experience. I heard Beethoven performed live on an 1854 Streicher and the sound was very nice indeed, nothing like you'd hear today.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

I am reminded of a recording of the 4th concerto released some time ago using a new edition of the score, with a number of late amendments from B that have not been recorded before. Has anyone heard this CD or knows about the edition itself?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
About Romantic music in this respect, I have a recording of Mendelson's Violin Concerto on authentic intruments but the difference is far less radical than that of Beethoven's which is on the same disk. There are not many authentic piano recordings from the Romantic era from my experience.

I have heard some "period piano" Chopin. It was interesting, but I can't say it really made too much of a difference one way or the other.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
I am reminded of a recording of the 4th concerto released some time ago using a new edition of the score, with a number of late amendments from B that have not been recorded before. Has anyone heard this CD or knows about the edition itself?

This CD came out in 1994 and was masterminded by our old friend, Barry Cooper. According to his liner notes, the alterations made by B amounted to 130 bars in a total of 1000. Mostly the changes relate to texture rather than actual thematic material - for example, " B exploits notes that lie above the range of the piano that had been available when he was preparing the concerto for publication."
The CD also included a revised version of the B flat piano concerto, and this is more startling as it includes a completely new theme in the opening orchestral tutti.
But all these changes have been selected or edited by Barry Cooper and, while interesting, should in no way replace the versions that B published.
CD is on Conifer CDCF 237 but, as I said, that was ten years ago.

Michael

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Michael:
... Mostly the changes relate to texture rather than actual thematic material - for example, " B exploits notes that lie above the range of the piano that had been available when he was preparing the concerto for publication."...

This is very interesting in light of the discussion we were having some time ago on another thread as to the use of the modern piano vs. the fortepiano when playing Beethoven. I think I said something there to the effect that perhaps B. was in the early part of the process of creating the modern piano thru his music.

If the above story is true, then perhaps the fortepiano would not be the ideal instrument for playing this concerto. If not the modern piano, then maybe the 1854 Streicher Rod mentions above. Or something else in-between forte and modern. Of curse this can get into nit-picking, but the import is that perhaps the piano might not be what it is today if not for Beethoven.

[Gurn Blanston]

I wouldn't bring up Mendelssohn in this discussion, but since Rod already did, I recently purchased a BIS recording of his violin concerto which was the premiere recording of his original score, and it was substantially different from the version with which we are familiar, and BIS actually had the good grace to enumerate the differences. It was not said that the instruments were period, so I suspect they were not, however the point being that the original score WAS substantially different from the traditional, so it revealed the intent of the composer much more accurately. On the other hand, I have read that B spent a goodly amount of time proofreading scores (authorized ones anyway), so a first edition score from an authorized source should be accurate as to his intent. Like any good author, I'm sure he reserved the right to make changes up until publication, no?
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

If the above story is true, then perhaps the fortepiano would not be the ideal instrument for playing this concerto. If not the modern piano, then maybe the 1854 Streicher Rod mentions above. Or something else in-between forte and modern. Of curse this can get into nit-picking, but the import is that perhaps the piano might not be what it is today if not for Beethoven.

Well, I've got a recording of no4 by Badura-Skoda using an original 1820 Graf (6.5 octaves) that would knock your socks off.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited March 06, 2003).]