Fifth Symphony

[Chaszz]

I've always liked the first movement of the 5th Symphony, but I consider the last movement one of the very greatest things ever written. I've always been sorry that the general public knows all about Da-da-da-dum but relatively nobody out there except classical music fans knows about the last movement, whose leading few bars are easily as memorable and hummable. It is also very inspiring in a positive way as compared with the first movement which is gloomier. Has anyone else shared this wish that the last movement was more universally known to the public at large, as against the first?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 27, 2003).]

[Peter]

I daresay the general public know no more than the first few bars of the first movement! The whole work is a marvel and nothing beats a live performance - an amazing experience that should lift anyone out of the doldrums, if not out of their seats!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I've always liked the first movement of the 5th Symphony, but I consider the last movement one of the very greatest things ever written. I've always been sorry that the general public knows all about Da-da-da-dum but relatively nobody out there except classical music fans knows about the last movement, whose leading few bars are easily as memorable and hummable. It is also very inspiring in a positive way as compared with the first movement which is gloomier. Has anyone else shared this wish that the last movement was more universally known to the public at large, as against the first?

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 27, 2003).]

I totally agree with you Chaszz, and have often thought of this myself. As a matter of fact, I think the whole 5th Symphony is a masterpiece. Every movement is as beautiful as the next. When I first heard the 4th movement I couldn't believe my ears! I thought it was well, it's indescribable, isn't it? I was always disappointed that the general public usually knows the first few bars of the the first movement and doesn't know what ectasy awaits them throughout and in the last movement. It's wonderfully uplifting. And, like Peter says, nothing beats a live performance. I saw this live a few times and it does lift you right out of your seat if not off the floor! It does pick up your spirits.

Joy


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 27, 2003).]

[ann hathaway]

My first hearing of the 5th symphony is an experience I can't forget. I love all of it but the final movement left me stunned, almost like being hit by a stun gun, and trembling, as though something really physical happened to me, I wandered slowly in a daze, just saying softly, Oh my God!,
Oh my God!. It was a most extraordinary feeling. Beethoven is such a staggering genius. I just want more and more!.

[Rod]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:


My first hearing of the 5th symphony is an experience I can't forget. I love all of it but the final movement left me stunned, almost like being hit by a stun gun, and trembling, as though something really physical happened to me, I wandered slowly in a daze, just saying softly, Oh my God!,
Oh my God!. It was a most extraordinary feeling. Beethoven is such a staggering genius. I just want more and more!.

I arranged the first movement for my mobile phone using its composer. A good job I did of it, though alas I don't get so many calls these days to hear it!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Steppenwolf]

I too adore the final movement. The first is fiery and fierce, and angry, and the second two are gloomy. But then, the clouds part and the sun shines through! The pessimism is dispersed and it ends on a triumphant note.

I have always thought the final movement would go well in a war movie, in the background, as an army rides into battle.

However, I do have one criticism. The ending. The finale is way overdone. The most sophisticated music just says what needs to be said, and then finishes. But there was a silly habit of having grand finales in the Romantic era, great clashing chords and banging, that doesn't know when to stop, that holds on and on and on and doesn't know when to let go. You never find any of that silliness in Mozart or Bach - in their music the ending is merely a resolution, it is not the whole purpose of a piece. It is a typically Romantic obsession with bombarding the senses and trying to artificially suspend the listener in a state of ecstatic, orgasmic excitment - whether he wants it or not! Music which climaxes at the end detracts from enjoyment of the music as it progresses, because the whole purpose of the music is its ending, it is a progression towards a final goal, rather than enjoying what it is being played NOW.

Finales which loud clashing and banging that go on and on are gimicky and silly, IMO. If you could just edit out the finale of Movement 4, it would be perfect!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 28, 2003).]

[Steppenwolf]

Regarding movement 1, I had the most horrible experience recently, when I heard the wonderful, yet terribly cliched, theme to movement one incorporated into a moronic rap song! Poor Beethoven would turn over in his grave. It was very depressing, I tell you, and seemed to me like the final victorious weapon in the war of extermination against art and culture.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I too adore the final movement. The first is fiery and fierce, and angry, and the second two are gloomy. But then, the clouds part and the sun shines through! The pessimism is dispersed and it ends on a triumphant note.

I have always thought the final movement would go well in a war movie, in the background, as an army rides into battle.

However, I do have one criticism. The ending. The finale is way overdone. The most sophisticated music just says what needs to be said, and then finishes. But there was a silly habit of having grand finales in the Romantic era, great clashing chords and banging, that doesn't know when to stop, that holds on and on and on and doesn't know when to let go. You never find any of that silliness in Mozart or Bach - in their music the ending is merely a resolution, it is not the whole purpose of a piece. It is a typically Romantic obsession with bombarding the senses and trying to artificially suspend the listener in a state of ecstatic, orgasmic excitment - whether he wants it or not! Music which climaxes at the end detracts from enjoyment of the music as it progresses, because the whole purpose of the music is its ending, it is a progression towards a final goal, rather than enjoying what it is being played NOW.

Finales which loud clashing and banging that go on and on are gimicky and silly, IMO. If you could just edit out the finale of Movement 4, it would be perfect!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 28, 2003).]

You say you adore the finale then go on to demolish it! I presume it is just the coda you are critisising? If so what do you make of the similar close to the 3rd symphony? Whilst it is true the Romantics never knew how to end a piece of music in a tasteful manner, Beethoven was not such a Romantic to my mind! Beethoven's ending may be theatrical, but it is musically perfect in a way the Romantics could never emulate. Mozart and Bach wrote nothing like the 5th in any case as far as I am aware! How else would he end this 'victory symphony' finale after what has gone before?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 28, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
If so what do you make of the similar close to the 3rd symphony?

And the 8th and the 9th!

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'Man know thyself'

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Rod:
You say you adore the finale then go on to demolish it! I presume it is just the coda you are critisising? If so what do you make of the similar close to the 3rd symphony? Whilst it is true the Romantics never knew how to end a piece of music in a tasteful manner, Beethoven was not such a Romantic to my mind! Beethoven's ending may be theatrical, but it is musically perfect in a way the Romantics could never emulate. Mozart and Bach wrote nothing like the 5th in any case as far as I am aware! How else would the end this 'victory symphony' finale after what has gone before?

I suppose in a piece like the 5th a dramatic ending is appropriate, even know it is not really my taste. But I still do think it is a little overdone. Listen to it again, with an open mind, and think about whether or not I might have a point.
I'm afraid that Beethoven is indeed guilty of that on other occasions too.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I suppose in a piece like the 5th a dramatic ending is appropriate, even know it is not really my taste. But I still do think it is a little overdone. Listen to it again, with an open mind, and think about whether or not I might have a point.
I'm afraid that Beethoven is indeed guilty of that on other occasions too.

Speaking not about codas, but about the repeated tonic chords to end a triumphant movement: Beethoven's music often has such a tremendous forward momentum, that it NEEDS a series of dramatic chords to end it, like slowing down and stopping a speeding train. I have tried to imagine different endings to some of these works, and cannot.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 28, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Speaking not about codas, but about the repeated tonic chords to end a triumphant movement: Beethoven's music often has such a tremendous forward momentum, that it NEEDS a series of dramatic chords to end it, like slowing down and stopping a speeding train. I have tried to imagine different endings to some of these works, and cannot.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 28, 2003).]

And after such a long sustained moody "battle" of the prior movements that final prolongation of the major tonic is necessary to drive home that triumphant point.

Who was it that said something to the effect that when he first heard the 5th Symphony that when he went to put on his hat he could not find his head?

I've always liked the 2nd movement as it has lifted my spirits to great soaring hope in times of darkness and depression.

[Gurn Blanston]

I too think the ending is perfect to what has come before, and on the original topic, YES, the last is the best (IMHO) mvmt, but don't forget the setup, the ominous sounding basses played so softly that you strain to hear what they're playing, and the momentum building, then the tremendous eruption; outstanding! The fifth may have become a musical cliche as I've heard, but I don't really care, it is a tremendous piece of work and I can't imagine trying to appreciate B without it. And after all, even cliches became such for a reason...
Regards, Gurn

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
I too think the ending is perfect to what has come before, and on the original topic, YES, the last is the best (IMHO) mvmt, but don't forget the setup, the ominous sounding basses played so softly that you strain to hear what they're playing, and the momentum building, then the tremendous eruption; outstanding!
Regards, Gurn

YES! I was hoping someone would note the beautiful transition from the dark, fragmentary scherzo's last section to the triumphant finale. And remember that, just to drive the point home, Beethoven reprises the scherzo in the middle of the finale! With a similar, though less spectacular, transition.

Re the "rap" version of the Fifth, I suspect that what the previous poster heard was "A Fifth of Beethoven," a "soul" version which has been around since the 1970's. I much prefer the genuinely soulful original.

[Poseidan73]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
It was very depressing, I tell you, and seemed to me like the final victorious weapon in the war of extermination against art and culture.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I love classical music, but i love some contemporary music as well (although not really rap). I love some classical crossover stuff, and i love hearing classical music in contemporary stuff, i know Paul Oakenfold sampled the first movement of the 5th on "1975", absolutely inspired.

Despite whatever we might like to think, current music *is* culture and some of its creators consider the music as their "art". That which is good will be very much alive and enjoyed centuries from now, much like Beethoven's music is to us at this point in time. Surely the solution for purists is to just not listen to the offending piece of music?