Concerto

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
. It was also the first time I heard the Choral Fantasy, and much to my surprise, I found it quite enjoyable.

Why were you surprised Gurn?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
You are right about the video, I saw it on Arts & Entertainment (Breakfast With the Arts) a couple of years ago and it was splendid. It was also the first time I heard the Choral Fantasy, and much to my surprise, I found it quite enjoyable. Unfortunately it surprised me so much that I was unable to get a blank tape in the recorder in timely fashion, and have not found it for sale since then! ;-(( Does anyone know for sure that this is the same performance that the CD (EMI?) is?
Regards, Gurn


[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited January 21, 2003).]

Yes, it is, it has in it's cover a photo from that concert.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Why were you surprised Gurn?

Well, not because it was Beethoven, that's for sure, but rather because of my pronounced preference for instrumental rather than vocal music. This is a pathological character defect on my part, but I am trying to get beyond it. ;-)
Regards, Gurn

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
I would have said the Violin concerto and the 4th piano concerto were the most beautiful.

Well, Op.61 and Op.58 probably have the most beautiful melodies of Beethoven's concertos, but the Emperor is the culmination of B's heroic period, and Op.15 and 19 are the culmination of the classic concerto, so they are masterpieces in their style. That's why are the most beautiful for me. They are profoundly impregnated of each style in which they are the climax.

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Well, Op.61 and Op.58 probably have the most beautiful melodies of Beethoven's concertos, but the Emperor is the culmination of B's heroic period, and Op.15 and 19 are the culmination of the classic concerto, so they are masterpieces in their style. That's why are the most beautiful for me. They are profoundly impregnated of each style in which they are the climax.

Concerto 3 is not bad either!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Concerto 3 is not bad either!

That's one of my favourites as well! I love the third movement. Does anyone know of the five Concertos which one Beethoven preferred
the most? I thought I read one time that it was the third but I could be wrong.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
That's one of my favourites as well! I love the third movement. Does anyone know of the five Concertos which one Beethoven preferred
the most? I thought I read one time that it was the third but I could be wrong.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

He made a statement which implied the third was better than his previous efforts, but at this time 4 and 5 had not been written. I know of no other statement of preference regarding the concertos.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
Concerto 3 is not bad either!

Surely not, but it's the less original one.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Surely not, but it's the less original one.

It's not less original than 1&2

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Joy:
That's one of my favourites as well! I love the third movement. Does anyone know of the five Concertos which one Beethoven preferred
the most? I thought I read one time that it was the third but I could be wrong.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

One of mine, too! The first time I remember hearing it, it had such a familiar sound to it that I thought I had heard it before. It had a similar sensation as one coming home after a very long trip.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
It's not less original than 1&2

Possibly.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Possibly.

Definitely! Here is my appraisal of the work from the concerto pages on this site pointing out some of the reasons why the work is more original and advanced than the earlier concertos:

"The piano writing in this concerto is technically more difficult than the earlier concertos although it is more restrained in the development section. The coda is very interesting and effective with the rhythmic use of the timpani and the pianist being kept playing till the very end . In the slow movement, as Beethoven uses a 3/8 time signature, the music looks formidable on the page - as it is covered in large quantities of hemidemisemiquavers and worse ! The piano opens very softly, presenting a beautiful theme which after modulating to the dominant, magically and unexpectedly turns to G major. After the orchestral statement of the theme, Beethoven breaks new ground in the middle section by using the piano as mere accompaniment to a bassoon and flute duet. Having chosen the extroadinary key (for a C minor work) of E major for this movement, in the Rondo Beethoven performs a wonder stroke by enharmonically using the notes of the last E major chord of the slow movement - he emphasises the notes B and Ab (the same on the piano as G#) in his Rondo theme. The mood of this energetic movement contains a certain desperation behind the high spirits. After the main theme, a new joyful theme appears first on the piano and then in the orchestra. The middle section is in Ab and a lovely melody is presented on the clarinet and then taken up by the piano. Beethoven's inventiveness is now in full swing, and he brings the main theme in as a fugue which leads into another of his enharmonic masterstrokes - repeated octave Ab quavers are then turned into G# with E in the bass, changing the Key to E major (same as the slow movement - so he has performed his original trick in reverse !) - surprise modulations continue almost up to the end. For the Coda, Beethoven provides a jubilant and rousing conclusion to the concerto in the major key."

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:

"Having chosen the extroadinary key (for a C minor work) of E major for this movement, in the Rondo Beethoven performs a wonder stroke by enharmonically using the notes of the last E major chord of the slow movement - he emphasises the notes B and Ab (the same on the piano as G#) in his Rondo theme".

I don't understand this. The slow movement ends in e major and the third starts in c minor, so what do b and ab have to do with the rondo? The only coincidence I can find is that b and ab are the thirds of Cm's dominant and subdominant respectively, and Beethoven uses them in the theme, but ab had to be there, because it is in Cm's key signature, and you can't use b natural enharmonically, because it doesn't have two names, unless you consider that "b" and "b natural" are different.
And how do you know that Beethoven put b natural in his rondo theme intentionally, as to associate it with the b natural of the slow movement's last chord?

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
I don't understand this. The slow movement ends in e major and the third starts in c minor, so what do b and ab have to do with the rondo? The only coincidence I can find is that b and ab are the thirds of Cm's dominant and subdominant respectively, and Beethoven uses them in the theme, but ab had to be there, because it is in Cm's key signature, and you can't use b natural enharmonically, because it doesn't have two names, unless you consider that "b" and "b natural" are different.
And how do you know that Beethoven put b natural in his rondo theme intentionally, as to associate it with the b natural of the slow movement's last chord?

Its simply that enharmonically the note Ab is the same as G# - thought of in this way the notes G# and B are two of the notes used in the chord of E major. Why else do you think he uses this remote key in a C minor work?

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
Its simply that enharmonically the note Ab is the same as G# - thought of in this way the notes G# and B are two of the notes used in the chord of E major. Why else do you think he uses this remote key in a C minor work?

He uses e major in order to use a b natural in the rondo?