Am I mistaken, or is there a bit of improvisation in this recording?
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I agree with this. In the exposition of the theme, there are many notes which don't appear in the score.Originally posted by Chris:
Am I mistaken, or is there a bit of improvisation in this recording?Comment
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Not just the original theme - there are embellishments to ornaments and changes of rhythm in some of the variations as well. I have the Urtext edition which is based on early impressions and original editions.Originally posted by chopithoven:
I agree with this. In the exposition of the theme, there are many notes which don't appear in the score.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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The addition of embellishments has become an increasingly popular trend amongst fortepiano players, I have Beethoven recordings where almost every other bar has something added to it! Frankly I don't know why they do it with Beethoven's music as it is not necessary. That being said I'll have to go back to my other two recordings to compare what is actually being played, for up to this point I was not aware of any particularly noticeable deviations in this respect between the recordings (unlike in some of the others I have where whole 'cadenzas' are added!).Originally posted by Peter:
Not just the original theme - there are embellishments to ornaments and changes of rhythm in some of the variations as well. I have the Urtext edition which is based on early impressions and original editions.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 20, 2003).]Comment
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Check http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net - I believe they have the sheet music for this piece free for viewing and download.Originally posted by Rod:
The addition of embellishments has become an increasingly popular trend amongst fortepiano players, I have Beethoven recordings where almost every other bar has something added to it! Frankly I don't know why they do it with Beethoven's music as it is not necessary. That being said I'll have to go back to my other two recordings to compare what is actually being played, for up to this point I was not aware of any particularly noticeable deviations in this respect between the recordings (unlike in some of the others I have where whole 'cadenzas' are added!).
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Not much good for me. I'll do it by ear!Originally posted by Chris:
Check http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net - I believe they have the sheet music for this piece free for viewing and download.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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I have eventually got round to sampling Brendel's and Tan's versions side by side (or near enough). I agree there are noticeable differences. I confess I had never listened very closely to Brendel's version before, because from the very first bar the whole interpretation is rather lifeless and uninspired. It lasts a good 40 seconds longer than Tan's. I noticed immediately differences in the theme and in the minor key variation, Tan elaborates both. Tan's was the first version I had heard and it occured to me that this variation sounded very archaic for Beethoven (due to the ornaments I find Tan now added), but not unpleasant, far from it. Brendel's version is very simple and requires a rather different manner of expression I believe. The simpler version could be the more profound of the two but Brendel was clearly not interested in this piece. I still would say Tan's version is the best I've heard even if it is not urtext.Originally posted by Peter:
Not just the original theme - there are embellishments to ornaments and changes of rhythm in some of the variations as well. I have the Urtext edition which is based on early impressions and original editions.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 23, 2003).]Comment
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Well it isn't Beethoven either and we know what Beethoven said to Czerny with regard to embellishing his work!Originally posted by Rod:
I still would say Tan's version is the best I've heard even if it is not urtext.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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True, but it is more Beethoven than Brendel's account!Originally posted by Peter:
Well it isn't Beethoven either and we know what Beethoven said to Czerny with regard to embellishing his work!
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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I haven't heard Brendel's account, but I have heard him in the late sonatas and whether or not you like his performance he is faithful to the score. Beethoven told Czerny that no matter how beautifully his music was played in other respects he would rather no liberties were taken.Originally posted by Rod:
True, but it is more Beethoven than Brendel's account!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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You know I've had it out with none other than Malcolm Bilson himself over the issue of added notes, but being faithfull to the score should also include observing tempo indications, yet how often are these thrown out of the window with Beethoven!?Originally posted by Peter:
I haven't heard Brendel's account, but I have heard him in the late sonatas and whether or not you like his performance he is faithful to the score. Beethoven told Czerny that no matter how beautifully his music was played in other respects he would rather no liberties were taken.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 25, 2003).]Comment
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If you like I could upload it for you here and my point will be proven, along with my other point about the use of fortepianos instead of Steinways.Originally posted by Peter:
I haven't heard Brendel's account, but I have heard him in the late sonatas and whether or not you like his performance he is faithful to the score.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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But it won't be proven! It will only be your opinion - we know Beethoven's and he didn't want extra notes added to his music! It seems to me that your over-riding consideration is that it must be an fp regardless of what the musician does to the music - the fact that Tan clearly alters the score is preferable to you than Brendel's literal interpretation on a modern instrument. You have uploaded mp3s of Brendel's playing before and reluctantly praised it - had it been on an fp you would have been ecstatic! As for the whole fp issue we have debated it ad infinitum and I have accepted some of your points, but I don't regard it as a cardinal sin to perform Beethoven on a modern instrument - I do however regard embellishing the score as taboo.Originally posted by Rod:
If you like I could upload it for you here and my point will be proven, along with my other point about the use of fortepianos instead of Steinways.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'Comment
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Ok I won't upload it then. When Brendel get's it right I say so, but this is rare from my experience, but you are correct in saying it would be more 'right' still if he used a good fp. If I was relying on his recording of 'God...' I would not have listed the piece on the rare page at all. I too would always be more interested to hear what B himself actually wrote on paper, but an equal sin is the constant stream of tedious pseudo-Urtext Beethoven performances we are subjected to that confuse the generally transparent and 'con brio' nature of his music with a slobbish 'moderato'. The music is all but robbed of its spirit and you still call it Urtext? I suggest the nature of the modern piano only encourages performances of this ..er.. nature. But I will not persue this angle any further. People will soon enough be able to judge for themselves more extensively. Adding notes and slob-handed interpretations are both conceits, but I can tolerate the odd addition more than listening to half an hour or more of mush.Originally posted by Peter:
But it won't be proven! It will only be your opinion - we know Beethoven's and he didn't want extra notes added to his music! It seems to me that your over-riding consideration is that it must be an fp regardless of what the musician does to the music - the fact that Tan clearly alters the score is preferable to you than Brendel's literal interpretation on a modern instrument. You have uploaded mp3s of Brendel's playing before and reluctantly praised it - had it been on an fp you would have been ecstatic! As for the whole fp issue we have debated it ad infinitum and I have accepted some of your points, but I don't regard it as a cardinal sin to perform Beethoven on a modern instrument - I do however regard embellishing the score as taboo.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod CorkinComment
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