String Quintet Op.104

[m]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for any information (on the Web) about Beethoven's arrangement of his Piano Trio in C minor (Op.1 No.3).
I think that this arrangement is great and I can't understand why it is not being played often in concert halls or even recorded on CDs.

Any help (links) would be appreciated.

What do you think about this arrangement ?

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by m:
Hello everyone,

I'm looking for any information (on the Web) about Beethoven's arrangement of his Piano Trio in C minor (Op.1 No.3).
I think that this arrangement is great and I can't understand why it is not being played often in concert halls or even recorded on CDs.

Any help (links) would be appreciated.

What do you think about this arrangement ?

M.
I think it is a splendid arrangement, I play it often. I have it on a Supraphon CD (3447-2) by the Suk Quartet with Karel Spelina on Viola. According to the liner notes, it was inspired by a transcription made by an eager amateur who presented it to B. who evaluated it and then set to work making his own detailed rearrangement (in 1817). It is essentially identical to the original piano trio with the exception of a few "spread chords" for the piano that couldn't be duplicated on the violin. It is coupled on the CD with Opus 4, another string quintet arrangement, this time of the Wind Octet Op 103. There is also the Sonata in A Op 47 (Kreutzer) arranged for String Quintet, this time with 2 cellos, possibly not rearranged by B. So if you count loosely as I do, there are a nice, neat symmmetrical 4 Quintets for strings which go quite nicely together. Many here will tell you that arrangements aren't worth a hoot, but I take great satisfaction in them, so encourage you to look them up.
Regards, Gurn

[m]

Good Morning,

Thanks Gurn.

I don't know the CD you've mentioned in your reply.
I didn't even know that this arrangement exists until a friend at work told me she's been reading a splendid book - An Equal Music by Vikram Seth.
In this book, there's a whole story regarding this arrangement.
I've read in your profile that you like books so I guess you're familiar with this book.
Anyway, it made me curious and I started looking for a CD. The only one I could obtain was the "Books CD". A CD that was published especially with works mentioned in the book.
I can't say the performance is good because I don't really like it. But, the arrangement itself is a completely different story.
I'm trying to convince all the professional players I know to perform it on stage (most of them I know only virtually so it's not that easy ...).
I guess the Suk performance is much better and the other arrangements sound quite interesting either. I'll try to search it again.
I'm glad to hear that you like it too. At least, I'm not the only one on earth ...
I hope I'm not too nosy but are you an amateur player ?

Have a nice weekend and thanks again.

[Andrea]

I have a 4 disc CD set of "The Complete Piano Trios" on EMI performed by Vladimir Ashkenazy (piano), Itzhak Perlman (violin) and Lynn Harrell (cello). This is a wonderful CD set and it also includes trio in B flat major, WoO 39; "Ich bin der Schneider Kakadu", Op. 121a; trio in B flat major, Op.11; Trio in D major Op. 70, "Ghost"; 14 Variations in E flat major, Op. 44; trio in E flat major, Op. 70, Nr.2; Trio in E flat major Hess-Verz.48; Trio in B flat major,Op.97 "Archduke"; and the Trio in E flat major, WoO 38.

This 4 CD set is a wonderful collection of some of Beethoven's most beautiful and emotional music. Beethoven never ceases to amaze me. As I write this, I am listening to the Trio Op.1, Nr. 3. The individual voices of the 3 instruments come together in such a way as to lift one's soul to another level of enlightenment and pure joy.

[m]

Well Andrea,

You should listen to the quintet arrangement if you like this Trio.
I'm quite a piano-fan when it comes to deal with chamber music and was quite skeptic about this version.
As soon as I got the CD and started listening to it ... I couldn't stop doing so.
It's so special and unique.
You really should try it !

I have a similar box with Zukerman, Du Pre and Barenboim which I like very much.

Enjoy.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
M.
I think it is a splendid arrangement, I play it often. I have it on a Supraphon CD (3447-2) by the Suk Quartet with Karel Spelina on Viola.

I have this Supraphon recording too. I can't say I was too impressed with of Op104, it doesn't really sound like a Beethoven piece to me, this arrangement is not entirely convincing compared to the original. I didn't like the performances on this CD in any case. I think with Beethoven's rearrangements (there are a few), the original author is always apparent to a greater degree than Beethoven's input. If you told me it was all Beethoven's work I would still be of this opinion in this case. I really bought this disk for the quintet op4 which is equally as rare.

I also have a recording of the Kreutzer Quintet which is not bad at all, though not in the original's league of course, but I really doubt if it had anything to do with Beethoven.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 22, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by m:
Good Morning,

Thanks Gurn.

I don't know the CD you've mentioned in your reply.
I didn't even know that this arrangement exists until a friend at work told me she's been reading a splendid book - An Equal Music by Vikram Seth.
In this book, there's a whole story regarding this arrangement.
I've read in your profile that you like books so I guess you're familiar with this book.
Anyway, it made me curious and I started looking for a CD. The only one I could obtain was the "Books CD". A CD that was published especially with works mentioned in the book.
I can't say the performance is good because I don't really like it. But, the arrangement itself is a completely different story.
I'm trying to convince all the professional players I know to perform it on stage (most of them I know only virtually so it's not that easy ...).
I guess the Suk performance is much better and the other arrangements sound quite interesting either. I'll try to search it again.
I'm glad to hear that you like it too. At least, I'm not the only one on earth ...
I hope I'm not too nosy but are you an amateur player ?

Have a nice weekend and thanks again.

M.
No, not an amateur player, merely an amateur listener ;-) As you see from the other replies here, rearrangements are relatively controversial. I do not regard them as lacking value, it is always interesting to hear familiar music being played in different ways, as long as they are not garbled beyond recognition. And in this case, it is not. It is a nicely balanced arrangement, and does justice to the original trio, IMHO. As for the Op 4 quintet, it could be fairly said that since I prefer string instruments to winds, that may be the root of my enjoyment of this arrangement. On this subject, for you or anyone else, when B wrote pieces that were ORIGINALLY scored for a choice of instruments (e.g. - the Bb trio Op. 11), which version do you think then to be the more proper? And if either version is equally proper, is the difference to you that they were published simultaneously this way instead of at different times? Just curious where the difference is. M., hope you can find a copy of that. It was just a mid-price CD, either a big-city place (such as Tower or Borders if you are in the US) or a good mail order (such as HBDirect.com where I got it) should have it.
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have this Supraphon recording too. I can't say I was too impressed with of Op104, it doesn't really sound like a Beethoven piece to me, this arrangement is not entirely convincing compared to the original. I didn't like the performances on this CD in any case. I think with Beethoven's rearrangements (there are a few), the original author is always apparent to a greater degree than Beethoven's input. If you told me it was all Beethoven's work I would still be of this opinion in this case. I really bought this disk for the quintet op4 which is equally as rare.

I also have a recording of the Kreutzer Quintet which is not bad at all, though not in the original's league of course, but I really doubt if it had anything to do with Beethoven.

Rod,
Well, of course, liking it or not is purely an individual thing. I reviewed the liner notes on the Op 47 (I have the SONY version by L'Archibudelli, as I suspect you may have too, it's the only one I've found), they don't really know who arranged it either, they speculate Ries, and say it was not published until 1832, but there is no evidence as to when it was actually written. I think this is a very listenable arrangement, and I particularly like the 2 cellos instead of the prevailing use of 2 violas.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, of course, liking it or not is purely an individual thing. I reviewed the liner notes on the Op 47 (I have the SONY version by L'Archibudelli, as I suspect you may have too, it's the only one I've found), they don't really know who arranged it either, they speculate Ries, and say it was not published until 1832, but there is no evidence as to when it was actually written. I think this is a very listenable arrangement, and I particularly like the 2 cellos instead of the prevailing use of 2 violas.
Regards, Gurn

Yes I have the Sony disk. I would say the fact that there are two cellos is a point of note, for Beethoven himself always preferred two violas in his string quintets. I have an another arrangement I think corrected by Beethoven on cd, op42, which is not a patch on its originator (the serenade op25).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[m]

Gurn,

Well, I can't remember right now other arrangements I've listened to and what my feelings were so I find it quite difficult to answer your question.
However, I used to think that the composer knows what's good for his music. That's why arrangements are not always easily accepted.
But after listening to the arrangement we are talking about (Op. 104), my opinion was completely changed. Besides, Beethoven himself wrote the arrangement (or made his own changes to someone else arran.) - so I guess we can't suspect him for having any reason to "screw up" his own music.
I read that you prefer the strings but allow me to introduce to you a wind quintet arrangement for the string quintet (which is an arrangement of the octet you've previously mentioned).
You can download it from the "Jerusalem Music Center" website. It's legal since these are recordings from live concerts they broadcast in the radio. I'll attach a link.
Now, I remember - on Sunday I've been in a concert where I listened to Steurmann's (I hope I spelled his name correctly) arrangement for Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht. It's an arr. for piano trio.
I must admit that I'm quite an old-fashioned listener and Schoenberg is too modern for my ears (even this romantic music of his).
But this performance just left me speechless. I couldn't stop hearing the Jerusalem Trio's sound in my ears for few days.
They also have recorded concerts in the site I'm about to attach. For Beethoven, they only have the Ghost trio which unfortunately isn't so good. I think it was their first time of playing this trio on stage. I heard them in a live concert after a while and they played much better.
If you ever have an opportunity of listening to this trio - I really recommend.

The link for the site is:
http://www.jmc.co.il/

Pressings the "Listen and Enjoy" button, brings you to various concerts.

You can go directly to Beethoven wind quintet by selecting:
http://www.jmc.co.il/chamberlive4.html

Sorry for the long message ...

I hope you'll enjoy the wind quintet after all.

m.


[This message has been edited by m (edited February 22, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by m (edited February 22, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by m:
Gurn,

Well, I can't remember right now other arrangements I've listened to and what my feelings were so I find it quite difficult to answer your question.
However, I used to think that the composer knows what's good for his music. That's why arrangements are not always easily accepted.
But after listening to the arrangement we are talking about (Op. 104), my opinion was completely changed. Besides, Beethoven himself wrote the arrangement (or made his own changes to someone else arran.) - so I guess we can't suspect him for having any reason to "screw up" his own music

I believe Beethoven re-arranged someone else's work with op104, but either way I felt little desire to sample it again after the fist hearing. My point is that Beethoven's own method of composition is so distinctive that it is easy to detect any deviance from this style, even when B himself has had some involvement. Generally I expect a better standard from B's wholely 'self made' arrangements than with his 'collaborations'. Do you think op104 is a match for the original op1/3? The genuine arrangement op4 was more interesting to me that op104.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 22, 2003).]

[m]

Rod,

As I've written, I was quite skeptic because I like the violin-cello-piano ensemble.
However, this arr. really touched me.
At the beginning, I felt that it was weird.
But after listening to it again and again ... I honestly think that Beethoven did a good job.
But as Gurn said - it's probably a matter of different opinions and "musical taste".

Think of that - if we all thought the same about arr. and about music in general ... what would we discuss ???

m.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by m:
Gurn,

Well, I can't remember right now other arrangements I've listened to and what my feelings were so I find it quite difficult to answer your question.
However, I used to think that the composer knows what's good for his music. That's why arrangements are not always easily accepted.
But after listening to the arrangement we are talking about (Op. 104), my opinion was completely changed. Besides, Beethoven himself wrote the arrangement (or made his own changes to someone else arran.) - so I guess we can't suspect him for having any reason to "screw up" his own music.
I read that you prefer the strings but allow me to introduce to you a wind quintet arrangement for the string quintet (which is an arrangement of the octet you've previously mentioned).
You can download it from the "Jerusalem Music Center" website. It's legal since these are recordings from live concerts they broadcast in the radio. I'll attach a link.
Now, I remember - on Sunday I've been in a concert where I listened to Steurmann's (I hope I spelled his name correctly) arrangement for Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht. It's an arr. for piano trio.
I must admit that I'm quite an old-fashioned listener and Schoenberg is too modern for my ears (even this romantic music of his).
But this performance just left me speechless. I couldn't stop hearing the Jerusalem Trio's sound in my ears for few days.
They also have recorded concerts in the site I'm about to attach. For Beethoven, they only have the Ghost trio which unfortunately isn't so good. I think it was their first time of playing this trio on stage. I heard them in a live concert after a while and they played much better.
If you ever have an opportunity of listening to this trio - I really recommend.

The link for the site is:
http://www.jmc.co.il/

Pressings the "Listen and Enjoy" button, brings you to various concerts.

You can go directly to Beethoven wind quintet by selecting:
http://www.jmc.co.il/chamberlive4.html

Sorry for the long message ...

I hope you'll enjoy the wind quintet after all.

m.


[This message has been edited by m (edited February 22, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by m (edited February 22, 2003).]

M.
Thank you for that link. Whe I return to work on Monday and have a broadband connection, I shall definitely listen to it. I agree, I find it difficult to listen to Schoenberg, but there is obviously something there that I simply can't hear. It has been a pleasure hearing from you and others on this subject, as I am quite interested in it. Good thread, hope you stay around for a while!
Regards, Gurn

[Michael]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
M.
I think it is a splendid arrangement, I play it often. I have it on a Supraphon CD (3447-2) by the Suk Quartet with Karel Spelina on Viola. Regards, Gurn

As a matter of interest, this is the actual recording referred to in the novel by Vikram Seth. It was not available on CD until after the novel was published.

Michael

[m]

Gurn,

Well, it seems to be quite a nice forum and I enjoyed this thread too.
I don't have many things to say usually but I like classical music so I hope to stay here ...
I also hope you'll enjoy the music from that link.

Michael,

Yes, I know that the Suk performance is the one that was mentioned in the book. I understood it only appeared on an old LP.
The Decca double-CD was published after the book was published.
I guess that it was then when they decided to publish the Suk version on CD too.
Did you like the book ? There are about 60 pages left for me to finish reading it and I must admit that it started really good, quite an interesting story with real artists' situations. But, getting to the end of the book ... I feel it is a little bit boring (when they travel in Venice, etc.).
What do you think ?


[This message has been edited by m (edited February 22, 2003).]