'B's Mother + Father relationship

[lysander]

Beethoven obviously felt the death of his mother very keenly;-
"She was such a good kind mother to me and indeed my best friend. Oh! who was happier than I, when I could still utter the sweet name of mother and it was heard and answered; and to whom can I say it now?
To the dumb likeness of her which my imagination fashions for me?.

I have read that 'B's father had sadomasochistic tendencies, and that young Ludwig did his exercises frequently in tears and was kept at them by the iron hand of his father. There were few days when he was not beaten in order to compel him to set himself at the piano.
If it is true that 'B' often had his ears boxed, it has made me wonder whether this would have attributed to his deafness - I suspect that it did.

It seems 'B' never made much reference to his father at all. Does anyone know whether 'B' attended his fathers funeral?

[Joy]

I have heard about the 'boxed ears' possibly being a cause to his later deafness too. Thomas Edison's father also used to box his son's ears and he was deaf in one ear. If it was a result of this, no one probably knows for sure.
As for Beethoven being present at his father's funeral, According to Solomon, "Beethoven set out for Vienna a day or two after Nov. 1, 1792. On Dec. 18, barely seven weeks later, Johann van Beethoven died probably from heart failure. They seem to think Beethoven knew of his father's terminal illness." It has no mention of Beethoven attending his funeral.

Joy

[Andrea]

"Hardly had he got his bearings in Vienna when the news reached him that his father had died. Johann had died on Dec. 18 1792, a little more than a month after Beethoven's arrival. No one seems to have mourned him; the cold death notice, "1792, Dec. 18, obiit Johannes Beethoff," is all we have. No word from the sons, no word from Johann's fellow musicians. Maximilian Franz cracked a cruel joke, stating that "the revenues from the liquor excise" would undoubtedly suffer because of Johann's death."
-from Beethoven, Biography of a Genius by George R. Marek.

[lysander]

Thankyou Andrea and Joy, for your fascinating research and Book recommendations. I shall take note.

I have a few books on Beethoven, but would like to biuld on them a bit more, like yourselves, I am very selective and only buy scholarly well researched books.
But there doesn't seem to be much around.

When I visit Stratford-Upon-Avon, (Shakespesare country), I visit the antiquarian book shops there, I was lucky to find just 1 , but a very good one on Beethoven's Pianoforte Sonatas, Discussed. By Eric Blom, published 1938. Probably just sort of book that Peter would like.
Needless to say there are thousands of books on shakespeare and I always end up buying one or two every time I visit.
Actually Oxford have the best antiquarian book shops, I love browsing around them. I must pay a visit there again soon.

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:


Beethoven's Pianoforte Sonatas, Discussed. By Eric Blom, published 1938. Probably just sort of book that Peter would like.

I have it! I also recently bought Editha & Richard Sterba's Beethoven and his Nephew which is quite disturbing, but I think on the whole probably a fairly accurate interpretation (though I don't go along with the substitute mother interpretation) - it certainly brings out the tragedy of the whole situation. Has anyone else read this book?

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'Man know thyself'

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have it! I also recently bought Editha & Richard Sterba's Beethoven and his Nephew which is quite disturbing, but I think on the whole probably a fairly accurate interpretation (though I don't go along with the substitute mother interpretation) - it certainly brings out the tragedy of the whole situation. Has anyone else read this book?

I've never even heard of it. What's the book's thesis?

[lysander]

I have read that 'B' had paranoid tendencies, he never fully developed basic trust, which is the cornerstone of interpersonal relationships. It is no surprise that, In conflict Beethoven identified with his father, whom he internalized and imitated in behaviour, so that his relations with his brothers and nephew, he also alternated between tenderness and cruelty.

From the unwarranted cruel, rough treatment
that was meted out by his father, when 'B' was a boy, we can understand 'B's reluctance, and even violent objection, -
in later life- to requests to play for his
patrons, as this was like reopening of the painful wound inflicted by his the
tyrannical coercion of his father and
Pfeiffer to force him to practice as a
child.

Beethoven sometimes refused to play for his
generous patrons, as with Countess Thun, even when she pleaded with him on her knees.
On another occasion, according to a witness,
Herr Mangold of Darmstadt, Beethoven agreed to play for the company only after Kapellmeister Wranitsky had crawled "like an animal on all fours under the piano".
- Jesting ofcourse?

I haven't read the Sterbas' psychoanalytic study of Beethoven and his nephew, though I understand from references to it that it has created considerable controversy, - I guess that is what sells a book.

I will get around to reading it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
I've never even heard of it. What's the book's thesis?

It sets out to explain the relationship between Beethoven and Karl - it shows how Beethoven, first with his brothers had to have complete possession and could bear no rivals, hence his extraordinary vitriolic reaction to their spouses. This is continued with his nephew - not only must he separate Karl from his mother, but any other person Karl forms an attachment to - including friends and teachers - Fanny Giannatasio reveals in her diaries her great surprise and disappointment at Beethoven removing Karl from her father's school, where he was doing well and was happy. In later years when Karl was studying for his final exams Beethoven was constantly accusing Karl of not studying enough, stealing (which was not true), limited his leisure time and even had people spy on him - the pressures of all this (including being forbidden to see his mother) finally led to the suicide attempt. Biographers aided by Schindler have completely failed to understand the pyschcological damage done to Karl by being removed from his mother and consequently have painted him in a bad light. To their credit, neither Johanna nor Karl ever spoke out against this, but Karl's children did complain of the unreasonable attitude toward their father.

I have no doubt Beethoven loved his brothers and Karl, but his need for their total affection ultimately destroyed these relationships - a great tragedy. Beethoven, Karl and Johanna would all have been better off if he had heeded the advice of his friend Stephan Von Breuning not to take up the guardianship - a disorganised, deaf man was simply not the right person to bring up a child on his own. Beethoven's brother Carl had expressed a (rather naive) wish on his death bed that his wife Johanna and Beethoven would be co-guardians and exist in peace together - within hours of his death Beethoven set himself on a course that would bring misery to all.

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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

We understand Beethoven's character to be very complex. Whatever his musical achievements he could be difficult, oversensitive, aggressive and perhaps undisciplined in his way, and probably suffered from bipolar disorder.

The attempt to know Beethoven through scientific data, images of his material form and circumstances, must always be misleading, and even absurd.
One is almost tempted to lump all the physical data together - such as The bronze statues, busts, pianos, ear trumpets, and the romantic portraits - and hurl them impatiently into the Rhine.
Beethoven's enduring monument is his music.
For there in the notes, are his intellectual functions revealed.
Beethoven IS the music!
He is a miracle, and I thank God for him.

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:



We understand Beethoven's character to be very complex. Whatever his musical achievements he could be difficult, oversensitive, aggressive and perhaps undisciplined in his way, and probably suffered from bipolar disorder.

The attempt to know Beethoven through scientific data, images of his material form and circumstances, must always be misleading, and even absurd.
One is almost tempted to lump all the physical data together - such as The bronze statues, busts, pianos, ear trumpets, and the romantic portraits - and hurl them impatiently into the Rhine.
Beethoven's enduring monument is his music.
For there in the notes, are his intellectual functions revealed.
Beethoven IS the music!
He is a miracle, and I thank God for him.

Absolutely! Beethoven certainly was a very complex character who genuinely believed he acted from the best motives, but being aware of how extraordinary he was, he failed to understand that everyone else was human! I think Beethoven's relationships with other people, whether they were friends, servants or family only go to show how deeply unhappy he was - unfortunately his forceful personality didn't make it easier for himself or those around him. Ultimately though as you say it is the music that endures and what music! I was listening to the last movement of Op.130 last night and it is hard to realise the circumstances it was written in - just after Karl's suicide attempt, arguments with his brother Johann and the onset of the final illness.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited February 14, 2003).]

[Joy]

I haven't read the book although I will look for it as I'm always interested in reading more material on Beethoven. I do have the video "Beethoven's Nephew" based on the novel by Luigi Magnani, a 1985 movie. It reminds me a lot about how you describe your book. It has to do with all the complexities and quirks of Beethoven who had to be a very demanding and difficult person to live with. I think Karl changed school's several times in his young life. Beethoven always suspecting the schoolmaster of informing Johanna of where Karl was and Karl constantly running away from school back to his mother. Karl must have been very mixed up in his youth being in that kind of environment. Even later in his life he was quite unsuccessful with his ventures. Nowadays I suppose we would call their lives 'dysfunctional.'

Joy

[heidi]

Originally posted by Joy:
I haven't read the book although I will look for it as I'm always interested in reading more material on Beethoven. I do have the video "Beethoven's Nephew" based on the novel by Luigi Magnani, a 1985 movie. It reminds me a lot about how you describe your book. It has to do with all the complexities and quirks of Beethoven who had to be a very demanding and difficult person to live with. I think Karl changed school's several times in his young life. Beethoven always suspecting the schoolmaster of informing Johanna of where Karl was and Karl constantly running away from school back to his mother. Karl must have been very mixed up in his youth being in that kind of environment. Even later in his life he was quite unsuccessful with his ventures. Nowadays I suppose we would call their lives 'dysfunctional.'

Joy

I have this movie and was not impressed with it. I also have the book, but haven't had a chance to read it as of yet. I am reading 'Beethoven and the Spiritual Path ' by David Tame right now. After the big discussion on this forum on Beethoven's religion, I took out of my collection to read ( only the first few chapters so far I'm afraid). I also have 'Nephew to the Emperor' with I think is about the rumour of Beethoven being the illigitement son of the King of Pursia(?) ( a big overblown rumor in his day) but I haven't got to that book either. Has anyone else read these books? Also , has any seen the old, old French movie with Abel Gance on B. I have that too.

[Joy]

Originally posted by heidi:

I have this movie and was not impressed with it. Also , has any seen the old, old French movie with Abel Gance on B. I have that too.

I was not that impressed with the movie either. Some parts seemed rather silly to me. How is the Abel Gance movie? I tried to get that movie a while back but it seems like a hard one to find.

Joy

[heidi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:
I was not that impressed with the movie either. Some parts seemed rather silly to me. How is the Abel Gance movie? I tried to get that movie a while back but it seems like a hard one to find.

Joy[/QUOTE

For a movie of its time, it is alright. Very over-dramatic and personaly I thought the actor that played Beethoven was too old. But worth watching. Keep checking on ebay. I see it listed once in a while and now on DVD.