Beethoven difficult ?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is where I fit Bach with the Romantics - the music is typically so 'filled-in' that from an interpretive point of view it is relatively easy to deduce the nature of the piece. With Beethoven things are never so obvious to the performer (or so it seems), there are greater dynamic and emotional contrasts of all kinds, which is why I suggest it is with Beethoven above all that we get such a huge variety of (duff) interpretations.

Well I can assure you from a performer's point of view this isn't so - Bach always takes me much longer to work on because of the complexities and different tone shadings required in part playing - I think most pianists would agree on this. Since Bach gives no phrasing or dynamics or tempi, how does that make it easier than working with Beethoven who gives detailed instructions as to performance? Part-playing is the most difficult part of a pianists job and in Bach we have to deal with that in abundance - that is why Beethoven was given the 48 by Neefe and why Chopin also recommended them as the means to produce a true artist.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I can assure you from a performer's point of view this isn't so - Bach always takes me much longer to work on because of the complexities and different tone shadings required in part playing - I think most pianists would agree on this. Since Bach gives no phrasing or dynamics or tempi, how does that make it easier than working with Beethoven who gives detailed instructions as to performance? Part-playing is the most difficult part of a pianists job and in Bach we have to deal with that in abundance - that is why Beethoven was given the 48 by Neefe and why Chopin also recommended them as the means to produce a true artist.

There has been very little deviation between the performances of Bach from what I have heard, and the same goes for the Romantics - even between period and modern instrument performances - compared to that of Beethoven, where the gulf can be enormous. This goes some way to explain why I find the music in question too 'easy' on the ear regardless of any technical difficulites present. Can you give me any other reason for this Peter?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
There has been very little deviation between the performances of Bach from what I have heard, and the same goes for the Romantics - even between period and modern instrument performances - compared to that of Beethoven, where the gulf can be enormous. This goes some way to explain why I find the music in question too 'easy' on the ear regardless of any technical difficulites present. Can you give me any other reason for this Peter?

It's obviously the way you hear it - I certainly don't find a work like the art of fugue easy on the ear, nor are some of the fugues from the 48. As regards deviation in performance in Bach, as an example I have heard, played and taught the c minor fugue book 1 both legato and staccato and at varying speeds. The tempo, dynamic and articulation variations in different performances is quite startling! One reason why I'm not a Glen Gould fan is that I find his touch all the same.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It's obviously the way you hear it - I certainly don't find a work like the art of fugue easy on the ear, nor are some of the fugues from the 48. As regards deviation in performance in Bach, as an example I have heard, played and taught the c minor fugue book 1 both legato and staccato and at varying speeds. The tempo, dynamic and articulation variations in different performances is quite startling! One reason why I'm not a Glen Gould fan is that I find his touch all the same.

Fair enough, but with Beethoven all styles are required simultaneously, whereas with the others in question the style of performance required is less varied in my opinion. Performers trained on Rachmanilow will not understand this.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough, but with Beethoven all styles are required simultaneously, whereas with the others in question the style of performance required is less varied in my opinion. Performers trained on Rachmanilow will not understand this.

Yes I accept your point about Beethoven - especially in the late music the moods change so suddenly within the same piece.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Are you thinking of Opu 49?


Technically perfect is one thing. With Beethoven's music one needs to be expressively perfect, too, and in my opinion this is by far the more difficult task.

Yes, but I don't undestand, why expressive with just Beethoven? You have to be expressive in Bach and Rachmaninov as well!

Agreed on that! We need to be expressive in all that we play.

[Zon]

Do you feel that Beethoven felt his music was difficult? I know he got really frustrated with the musicians at times.