Beethoven difficult ?

[spaceray]

Musicians complained, when Beethoven set his music before them, that it was too difficult to play ?Is this so?

[Peter]

Beethoven's music is not easy! Of the sonatas I can only think of one or two movements that could be attempted by anyone below Associated Board grade 8 standard (not the same as American grades - I have no idea what the equivalent in the US would be, but our grade 8 music exam is the final one before taking diplomas).

Even the early sonatas are generally more difficult than those of Haydn or Mozart. Since Beethoven's time much more technically demanding music has been written - as a pianist I'm thinking of Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokoviev and Bartok.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
Beethoven's music is not easy! Of the sonatas I can only think of one or two movements that could be attempted by anyone below Associated Board grade 8 standard (not the same as American grades - I have no idea what the equivalent in the US would be, but our grade 8 music exam is the final one before taking diplomas).

Even the early sonatas are generally more difficult than those of Haydn or Mozart. Since Beethoven's time much more technically demanding music has been written - as a pianist I'm thinking of Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokoviev and Bartok.

Peter,
Is this not because the class of professional musicians had risen to more prominence by that point in history? My perception is that esp. sonatas in earlier times were written particularly for amateurs, who were likely quite capable, but certainly not of the quality of professionals. True??
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Musicians complained, when Beethoven set his music before them, that it was too difficult to play ?Is this so?

Technically not so difficult compared to some later music as Peter mentions, but from an interpretive point of view, considering the mess even the big name performers often make of Beethoven's piano music, Beethoven must be the most difficult of all. In this context Romantic music is a piece of cake, and this is apparent even though I can't play a note on the piano!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
Is this not because the class of professional musicians had risen to more prominence by that point in history? My perception is that esp. sonatas in earlier times were written particularly for amateurs, who were likely quite capable, but certainly not of the quality of professionals. True??
Regards, Gurn

Well that's true - but Beethoven was not writing for amateurs and nor was Mozart in his piano concertos which were generally written for himself to perform. I think another reason was the development of the instrument which allowed greater technical feats - Liszt was one of the first composers to exploit this, inspired by Paganini's wizardry on the violin. Liszt was also credited with having invented the recital, taking solo piano music out of the drawing room into the concert hall. I think that Op.101 was the only sonata of Beethoven's that was actually given a public performance in his lifetime.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
Beethoven's music is not easy! Of the sonatas I can only think of one or two movements that could be attempted by anyone below Associated Board grade 8 standard (not the same as American grades - I have no idea what the equivalent in the US would be, but our grade 8 music exam is the final one before taking diplomas).

Are you thinking of Opu 49?

[/B] Even the early sonatas are generally more difficult than those of Haydn or Mozart. Since Beethoven's time much more technically demanding music has been written - as a pianist I'm thinking of Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokoviev and Bartok.

[/B]

Technically perfect is one thing. With Beethoven's music one needs to be expressively perfect, too, and in my opinion this is by far the more difficult task. I looked at one of Prokofieff's piano concertos and I consider it impossible.

[Joy]

Isn't one of Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos (either 2 or 3) one of the most impossible music pieces to learn and play? I have heard this, but don't know if it's true or not.

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Isn't one of Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos (either 2 or 3) one of the most impossible music pieces to learn and play? I have heard this, but don't know if it's true or not.

Joy

It is the 3rd that is considered the greatest challenge to the technique! Having said that the little known 1st is not easy (nor is the 2nd) - Of all his piano works with orchestra my favourite is the Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini - again very difficult.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sorrano:

Are you thinking of Opu 49?

Yes and 2nd mov Op.14/2, possibly a few other individual movements.

Technically perfect is one thing. With Beethoven's music one needs to be expressively perfect, too, and in my opinion this is by far the more difficult task.

Yes, but I don't undestand, why expressive with just Beethoven? You have to be expressive in Bach and Rachmaninov as well!



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'Man know thyself'

[Leigh M]

Beethoven's piano music is definately not easy to play!
One must remember also that during Beethoven's time the piano went through many changes. Publishing a sonata like op. 2, no 3 in 1795 would have challenged many of the virtuosi of the time.

Beethoven was a brilliant pianist. Who had every aspect of his technique in ship shape. The sonatas are testimony to this. It certainly takes a pianist of great technical and interpretive skill to be able to play the entire cycle.

And just a note on Rachmaninov's prodigious talent as a composer and performer, the first concerto that Peter mentioned (a beautiful and incredibly demanding work)was completed when Serge was only 18 years old.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:

as a pianist I'm thinking of Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokoviev and Bartok.

Peter, would you include Chopin in that list or no?

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:

Of all his piano works with orchestra my favourite is the Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini - again very difficult.

I'm not a huge Rachmaninov fan but I have to say Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini is my all time favourite as well of his. I also like his Piano Concerto#2, the second movement is beautiful I think.

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Peter, would you include Chopin in that list or no?

Joy

Hmmm - Possibly but his concertos and sonatas (though very difficult) are not as fiendish as the other names I mentioned. I think it was Liszt who made a greater contribution regarding technical possibilities of the instrument. Incidentally, Chopin (who didn't admire Liszt's music greatly) told Liszt that he wished he could play his own etudes as well as Liszt!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It is the 3rd that is considered the greatest challenge to the technique! Having said that the little known 1st is not easy (nor is the 2nd) - Of all his piano works with orchestra my favourite is the Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini - again very difficult.

I find these 'Rach' concertos sprawling and sometimes rather artificially constructed, really very boring for me.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


Yes, but I don't undestand, why expressive with just Beethoven? You have to be expressive in Bach and Rachmaninov as well!

This is where I fit Bach with the Romantics - the music is typically so 'filled-in' that from an interpretive point of view it is relatively easy to deduce the nature of the piece. With Beethoven things are never so obvious to the performer (or so it seems), there are greater dynamic and emotional contrasts of all kinds, which is why I suggest it is with Beethoven above all that we get such a huge variety of (duff) interpretations.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin