DISLIKE OF G AND E MAJOR?

[PDG]

Yes, Gurn, I thought you must have meant B rather than B flat...

Fascinating stuff, though. If Mozart had had a melody in his head which stretched beyond his keyboard, it would appear as though he would have had to change his melodic aspiration completely, thus he would have been compromising his creativity. This is a big subject....wonder why it's never come up before?.....

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, Gurn, I thought you must have meant B rather than B flat...

Fascinating stuff, though. If Mozart had had a melody in his head which stretched beyond his keyboard, it would appear as though he would have had to change his melodic aspiration completely, thus he would have been compromising his creativity. This is a big subject....wonder why it's never come up before?.....

Well, it came up in my head about 5 years ago when I first became interested in fortepianos. I have never raised it in discussion (even though I moderate a quite large forum myself, and take part in 6 fora in all). I think the reason that I haven't brought it up is that I am basically quite ignorant. But why people who know things haven't brought it up is a mystery for the ages, IMO. Even that post I quoted on Mozart was only talking about key choices, not creative potential. The door was open, no one walked through. I would truly enjoy such a discussion.




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Now playing: Schubert: Winterreise - Martiti Talvela / Ralf Gothoni - Der Lindenbaum ('Am Brunnen vor dem Tore'), songs for voice & piano (Winterreise), D. 911/5 (Op. 89/5)

[Peter]

Yes, Gurn, I thought you must have meant B rather than B flat...

Fascinating stuff, though. If Mozart had had a melody in his head which stretched beyond his keyboard, it would appear as though he would have had to change his melodic aspiration completely, thus he would have been compromising his creativity. This is a big subject....wonder why it's never come up before?.....

It has come up before! In at least one famous example instead of compromising creative ability it stimulated it - Beethoven's D minor sonata (Tempest) where in the opening movement exposition a passage rises up in octaves but in the recapitulation this isn't possible due to the range, so Beethoven instead has just the bottom note rising against a continuous top d producing wonderfully inspired dissonances that probably wouldn't have occured to him had he simply been able to repeat the original passage transposed.

[Sorrano]

Look at the Missa Solemnis, too. It's scored in D and at that time there were D trumpets, yet the final section employs the B-flat trumpets for the war-like fanfare. The key of D Major had to have more importance than mere convenience for instrumentation in this case.

[Quijote]

Look at the Missa Solemnis, too. It's scored in D and at that time there were D trumpets, yet the final section employs the B-flat trumpets for the war-like fanfare. The key of D Major had to have more importance than mere convenience for instrumentation in this case.

Interesting point by Sorrano. The D / B-flat relationship is also important in the Ninth symphony (as Nicholas Cook has pointed out). This is an aspect worth developing, and if others do not I would like to return to it at a later point when I have time.

To return to PDG's original question about E / G : at the risk of repeating what others have already posted, it is true that LvB held particular feelings about keys (B minor being "a dark key", for example). Many musicans do, by the way, and it is not necessarily just a question for those who have perfect pitch. Personally, I equate D minor with tragedy (for personal emotive reasons that I need not go into here), A major with "brightness", E-flat with "richness" and so on. I'm afraid that I cannot "see" colour-codes with keys as Schoenberg / Kandinsky posited, but so what? Each to their own.

Others have also posted about keys being suited to certain instruments. This is certainly the case, but is only a part answer. We must not forget the context in which much 18th and early 19th-century music was played : it was essentially what we would call today an "amateur" milieu, and the term 'amateur' at that time did not necessarily mean 'technical incompetence'. That said, the level of technical proficiency was far behind what we would expect of professionals, but it is surely the case that the choice of key reflected the 'amateur' consumption of the printed score.

This question is equally interesting if we look at Beethoven's string quartets. The early set (Op. 18) were (and are) eminently playable by reasonably 'competent' string players. The keys they are composed in (and the keys that they 'visit' in the development of each work) hardly pose great technical challenges. This all changes with the 'Razumovsky' quartets, both in terms of technical proficency (reflecting the increasing 'professionalisation' of the quartet instigated by Schuppanzigh and Beethoven) and use of keys (or modulations to extreme keys). And this aspect (use and choice of key) radically alters in the late quartets.

To address PDG's question about E and G in particular : the prevalence of G in B's oeuvre is not perhaps so scarse as PDG imagines, as others have mentioned. The use of E (major), or rather its relative 'unuse' is worthy of comment. I must reserve comment at this juncture prior to further research. What I would like to point out, however, is the relationship between the two keys PDG asks about : E and G = a third. We all know the importance of this interval in B's oeuvre (I can give examples later if you wish; I'm sure you can all come up with the same anyway!). The 4th piano concerto springs to mind, as does the Hammerklavier, and parts of the late quartets.

I think there is much more to be said about keys. Well done to PDG for raising this important point.

[PDG]

I think there is much more to be said about keys. Well done to PDG for raising this important point.

Yes, well done to me. My original post was from 7 years ago: that's the same length of time The Beatles were in the spotlight!!

[Quijote]

Yes, well done to me. My original post was from 7 years ago: that's the same length of time The Beatles were in the spotlight!!

Yes PDG, 7 years ago. But it was Peter who chose to 'resurrect' the thread. Well done to him and you, then!

[PDG]

Er...no, that was me, too!

[Quijote]

Er...no, that was me, too!

Er ... well done to me then for responding so effectively to ... er ...

[Junggai]

Hello all, new member here.

This topic is of great interest to me, such interest that my dissertation is being written over the same topic, key characteristics in Beethoven.

In my research, I have found a few things which might be interesting to this discussion:

In response to the original thread, Beethoven hardly ignored G Major and E Major if you look within works. For example, E Major appears often in second movements, especially works in C major or minor. It's also famously the key of the second theme group in the first movement of Waldstein, Op. 53. G Major also makes an appearance in Op. 110 and Op. 130.

B's employment of various keys, from what I have found, appears more or less consistent from beginning to end of his output, and in the late works their use within works seems to call up references to other works in that key.

To reply to another comment about the variability of tuning in B's day, I also found two other interesting anecdotes. One is that Beethoven was to play his first concerto, and discovered that the piano was a half step flat. His solution? Play the solo part in C-Sharp to match the orchestra. There's also a second anecdote, more revealing for B's belief in the importance of keys. He wanted to play through his horn sonata on one occasion, and once again, the piano was half a step flat; the hornist offered to add a crook to play flatter, but Beethoven wouldn't hear of it. He opted to transpose in this case as well.

[Hofrat]

I am sorry I missed this thread. I wanted to bring up the fact that the brilliance of a symphony or a chamber work with strings also depends on the open strings that the strings play. More open strings, more brilliance. Less open strings, less brilliance. More sharps and flats in the key signature, less open strings.

A great example of this is Paganini's 1st violin concerto in D-major. The solo violin is tuned a half tone higher. The solo violin plays in a brilliant D-major (doubly brilliant because of the high tuning) while the orchestra plays in a solemn E-flat major on normally tuned instruments. This allowed Paganini to stand out when he performed.

[Hofrat]

Look at the Missa Solemnis, too. It's scored in D and at that time there were D trumpets, yet the final section employs the B-flat trumpets for the war-like fanfare. The key of D Major had to have more importance than mere convenience for instrumentation in this case.

You must remember that the trumpet came to the symphonic orchestra by way of the army. And the concert pitch of military bands was B-flat major at that time. In the Leonore overtures 2 and 3, Beethoven scores for C-major trumpets until the time is ripe for the redeeming trumpet calls. For these, Beethoven calls upon a B-flat trumpet, most definitely for the martial effect.

[Chris]

I am sorry I missed this thread. I wanted to bring up the fact that the brilliance of a symphony or a chamber work with strings also depends on the open strings that the strings play. More open strings, more brilliance. Less open strings, less brilliance. More sharps and flats in the key signature, less open strings.

It seems most string players avoid use of open strings these days. I always liked the sound, myself, plus the nice break it gives my fingers!

[Hofrat]

I don't know about the pitch being too high - the thing is that in B's day you could travel from one city to another and be in a different key - something had to be done. To Mozart (who had perfect pitch to such a degree that he could detect differences of 1/8 of a tone), it must have been particularly unnerving.
From what I gather pitch reached its highest point in the 1880's where Erard and Broadwood tuned A at around 455 - It's interesting to note that in 1812, the Paris conservatoire had A at 440 - the same as today.
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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-28-2000).]

Salzburg and Vienna, although within the same state, were often worlds apart. It is a tribute to Mozart that he could navigate both worlds with such ease.

The recording industry caused the tuning to rise again. Brilliant music sold well and the easiest way to brilliantize your music performance was to tune higher. The tuning rose and rose until the pianos started to collapse, since the recording executives did not realize how many extra tons of tension the piano must bear when tuning it only one half tone higher.

[Hofrat]

E-major has 4 sharps in its key signature. C#-minor has the same 4 sharps in its key signature. Beethoven only wrote 2 works in C#-minor: a sonata opus 27/2 and a string quartet opus 131. That is about even with his E-major output and half of his G-major output. With regards to the sonata, Beethoven was sharply criticized for writing it in "that terrible key!"

Apparently, C#-minor was not an easy key. Only two symphonies were written in that key in the whole 18th century, one of which was by Joseph Martin Kraus (1756-1792) and he later rewrote it in a more managible C-minor. Even Brahms had trouble with C#-minor when he was composing his 3rd piano quartet.