Beethoven and punk rock

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:

... Punk rock and pop music doesn't have that power, and the producers of that sort of music do not have the sort of extraordinary, rare genius that great men like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and Wagner possesed.


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited February 10, 2003).]

Good posting, Steppenwolf. But let's not forget Handel lest we have an incendiary incident in one corner of the forum, here...

[zenmaster126]

Yeh fair play, The Pistols rnt as talented a Beethoven, not by far, but I have to say, even though "The Doors" were a collective, they still compaire to him, so does Jeff Buckley Tom Yorke and Billy Corgan

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
Yeh fair play, The Pistols rnt as talented a Beethoven, not by far, but I have to say, even though "The Doors" were a collective, they still compaire to him, so does Jeff Buckley Tom Yorke and Billy Corgan

Well, I can only believe that if that were true, I would have even a vague idea of who you are talking about. Perhaps you mean Lennon & McCartney? All things must be kept in perspective, grasshopper. "Important" to a relatively small group of people for a few months or years and "ultimately important" to a very large group of peole over a span of 200 or more years simply do not compare. I really do not mean to deride what you are saying here, I realize that this is important to you, and I respect that, but if you sit and think about it quietly for a moment, then answer the question "in 10 (or 20, 30, 50 or 100) years, who will have heard of the people you mention versus who will STILL be talking about Beethoven (or Mozart, Haydn, et al), and I feel that you can only come up with one answer. As for the original thread, lest it should be lost from sight, yes, I absolutely believe that all composers who we now consider to be great shocked the musical establishments of their times. It is a sad commentary on the state of art music in our times that the musical establishment of our time is rock and roll. So the "punkers" indeed did the same. Is the scale and the quality of the art the same? Hell no. We live in a Lowest Common Denominator society, and if acknowledging that sad fact makes me an elitist snob, so be it. I insult, therefore I am.
Regards, Gurn

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
We live in a Lowest Common Denominator society, and if acknowledging that sad fact makes me an elitist snob, so be it. I insult, therefore I am.
Regards, Gurn

Yes! Thank you, it is reassuring to find someone else who agrees with me on this. You can't go around saying these things without most people dismissing you as a freak, a reactionary old bore.
Civilisation is more than just bricks and mortar. So much more. It is a shared morality, education, social cohesion and culture. Yet in ALL those areas we are going not forwards, but backwards. Culturally we have currently got the gears in reverse. Beethoven to the Sex Pistols is not progress. It is alarming regression. Why can't more people open their eyes and see this obvious point?
Here's the proof. Why is it that to be "modern" and "with it" and "cutting edge" requires progressive degrees of vulgarity, coarseness, baseness and mindless rebellion? Why is it that everything that is tasteful, elegant and refined is considered stuffy, elitist and ridiculously old fashioned? Why do modern music 'artists' compete with each other to be the most vile? Why is it that the only type of 'art' given credit the so-called 'high brow' domain of modern art is anything that is disordered, ugly and 'controversial' (ie offensive)? Well let me be crude ... I can't help thinking our society is seriously f**ked up.

Regarding Jeff Buckley, and however the others are. You would be more credible if you said that these people represented quality, modern 'folk music'. But to compare them with the magnificent achievements of Beethoven is niave. Time will tell. People will still be listening to Beethoven in 50 years time (if civilisation still exists then) but I doubt anyone will even have heard of those others you mentioned. You need only a basic knowledge of musical theory to know that, for starters, there is less to this modern music than there is to the great works of classical. It is simpler (that doesn't necessarily mean worse ... just not as difficult to write, and therefore not the product of genius). Most people of reasonable intelligence, if given the basic training, could write an OK rock song. But it takes a one in a billion genius to write Beethoven's 9th Symphony, Handel's Messiah, Mozart's piano concertos, Bach's Mass in B minor or Wagner's Ring Cycle.

One thing I will say however is that most modern pop music - even punk rock in my opinion - is ten times preferable to the pretensious garbage that constitutes modern intellectual or 'classical' music. At least there is some sort of sensual enjoyment to be gained from listening to it.




[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited February 13, 2003).]

[zenmaster126]

man this is bs, i have an understanding of music theory thank you, and alot of modern music IS NOT less complex than cassical, THAT IS NAIVE, and yes most modern music sux, but only becuase more people get to voice their "talent" and of course theres the money situation. But if you havent heard of the smashing pumpkins radio head or Jeff Buckley you cant really comment, these people do with their voices and instuments what classical composers wrote on paper, and i dont believe people would have expected Beethoven to be popular today, but he is, the same people who dissmised his music are the same people who dissmiss the genious of today, and something being complex does not make it genious, the Moonlight Sonata is in my opinion an amazing piece, but it is very simple, it contains alot of repatition, very few key changes, and a slow tempo i.e. its not hard to play, and some modern artists work DOES compaire

[zenmaster126]

ps my spelling sucks, and I know it

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
some modern artists work DOES compaire

Hmm ... you might have a point. I am still sceptical, but open minded.
I consider, for instance, that Led Zeplin's 'Stairway to Heaven' is perhaps one of the greatest pieces of music written in the 20th Century. However, I don't think it can compare in majesty, depth and mamouth scope to a work like Beethoven's 9th. The very best rock music is comparable to good classical music, but not comparable to EXCELLENT classical music. And I think the proof is in the experience - classical music has a power to transform you and reach to depths and heights that supass anything else, and nobody can understand that except someone who has experienced it.


However, I want to emphasise again, I don't dismiss ALL modern pop music, but I will draw a line when it comes to genuine crap like punk rock and rap.

My point about a decadent modern civilisation is an incidental issue - not necessarily connected to the modern music you have mentioned.

Jeff Buckley, I have heard of him, but not listened ... didn't he drown in a river or something?

On another note, I am interested in your screen name. Care to elaborate?:-) One of my main interests and hobbies, apart from classical music, is Eastern philosophy/mysticism, especially Zen, Mahayana Budhism, Vendanta and Taoism.

[zenmaster126]

hmmmm ok, but i have experienced classical music, alot of it, and you have to experiance some amazing albums by artists that i have mentioned, the whole appeal of Jeff Buckley (yes he did drown) is that his music elivates you to new hights, this is what music is about, genuine valid emotion, and obviousley some skill and the artists i mentioned are/were all very skilled some as skilled classical composers, i realise that you probably wont have heard much of the stuff i am reffering to so i understand the sceptisism, also to the person who said Steve Vai (and all the other idiots like him)is the closest thing to Beethoven is wrong, its not just about being able to play well, its about how much emotion and substance you put into your work

i am also very interested in nature (and "logic") based religion such as wicka and bhudism, to me they dont really seem much like religions, in fact they rnt, they contain basis in fact, and sensible, practical and at the same time meaningfull guidlines for life. Of course theres the spirituality part that many people may find far fetched, but for for e.g. the karma theory can be seen from simply looking out of your window, there is balance in everything, even if you are reluctant to admit it

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Beethoven was vilified in his day. So was John Lydon. Yeah, OK, so what? Are you suggesting that this similarity means they are alike? Are you suggesting there is a similarity that goes deeper than that?

Not at all! Never would I put the Sex Pistols, or even the Doors, on Beethoven's level. It's a long drive from "having something in common" to "being alike"!

But your comment about apples and oranges is well spoken. One wouldn't think a simple waltz tune would last more than a few decades, but there's the Blue Danube to confound our expectations. The same for a lover's lament; but Greensleeves is still played and sung, even in church at Christmastide! Are they as deep or complex as the Ninth, or even B's First Piano Sonata? No! But they're memorable. (So memorable that I cringe on hearing Johann Strauss Jr's most popular waltz! But that's another post.)

Greatness is essentially a mystery.

[Peter]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
But they're memorable. (So memorable that I cringe on hearing Johann Strauss Jr's most popular waltz! But that's another post.)

Don't let an Austrian hear you say that - it is almost a National Anthem for them!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Peter:
Don't let an Austrian hear you say that - it is almost a National Anthem for them!

I'd just tell him/her I also cringe on hearing an inferior singer start "The Star-Spangled Banner!"

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited February 16, 2003).]