Eroica

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Are you meaning it starts with the same theme, or another theme on the cello? It's unconventional to find a Beethoven development with the same theme of the exposition, even in another key.

No it isn't unconventional - that is what a development does - develop material already used - introducing a new theme as in the Eroica is unconventional! The development must start where Michael says - it wouldn't be long in a triple concerto as the Exposition was necessarily long to accommodate the material being introduced by the orchestra and all three soloists.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Apologies! I have added to the confusion by an error in my last message. Where I said the "recapitulation begins at 8 minutes 30 seconds", I meant, of course, the DEVELOPMENT section begins quietly at that point. (It was about two in the morning when I posted it!)
As Peter says, the development section is quite short by Beethoven's standards, and the recapitulation when it comes is played loudly by the full orchestra.
I have since amended the previous message.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited February 09, 2003).]

[Michael]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Are you meaning it starts with the same theme, or another theme on the cello? It's unconventional to find a Beethoven development with the same theme of the exposition, even in another key.

There are numerous examples of Beethoven opening his developments with the main theme of the movement: the first movements of the Fifth and Ninth Symphonies, the Razumovsky quartets, and so on.
The themes might be bent out of shape a little and the key may be changed.
In the first Razumovsky, Beethoven gives the impression that he is about to repeat the exposition but then he veers suddenly off into a long and stunning development section which plays a few more tricks on the listener until the recapitulation comes in with the right key of F major - but the wrong theme!

Michael




[This message has been edited by Michael (edited February 09, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
No it isn't unconventional - that is what a development does - develop material already used - introducing a new theme as in the Eroica is unconventional! The development must start where Michael says - it wouldn't be long in a triple concerto as the Exposition was necessarily long to accommodate the material being introduced by the orchestra and all three soloists.

I'm aware of this, but I thought our friend Michael was confusing the development with the exposition. Although the development can start with the same material of the exposition, it won't continue with that for too long, as it happens in the finale of Op.36, and/or it will be slightly modified as Michael says, but it cannot be exactly identical to the exposition for too many measures, that was my point, which I think was misunderstood. Perhaps I made that apparently wrong statement because on the last days I've been listening too much the Eroica, whose development is rather different from the exposition. I apologize for my supposed mistake, if it was so.
Anyway, a measure number or a concrete explanation of the exact moment in which the development of Op.56 starts would be pleasing. Was the one given above by Michael correct?

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited February 09, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Anyway, a measure number or a concrete explanation of the exact moment in which the development of Op.56 starts would be pleasing. Was the one given above by Michael correct?

Can't give a bar number as I have no score, but Michael is describing the correct moment for the development.

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
Can't give a bar number as I have no score, but Michael is describing the correct moment for the development.

Fine.