Eroica

[chopithoven]

Rod Corkin: In your article about the Eroica, when you say "a wealth of subsidiary
and transitional ideas that culminates in the overwhelming climax of the development",
are you referring to a section of the development in which there are 40 bars of
continous fff, sf and f by the whole orchestra, which is inmediately followed
by the beatiful theme stated by the oboes in e minor?

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Rod Corkin: In your article about the Eroica, when you say "a wealth of subsidiary
and transitional ideas that culminates in the overwhelming climax of the development",
are you referring to a section of the development in which there are 40 bars of
continous fff, sf and f by the whole orchestra, which is inmediately followed
by the beatiful theme stated by the oboes in e minor?

Don't make score references because I haven't got a score, nor could I read most of it if I had. But yes, reading your description above I think it fits the bill concerning the 'climax'. The point in general refers to the unusually high number of musical ideas made use of in this section of the movement.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
The point in general refers to the unusually high number of musical ideas made use of in this section of the movement.

Oh, yes, that's very reasonable.
And as we are talking about the heroic period, would you say the Triple Concerto belongs to the Heroic Period? If so, why?

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Oh, yes, that's very reasonable.
And as we are talking about the heroic period, would you say the Triple Concerto belongs to the Heroic Period? If so, why?

It depends how you see these 'periods'. I don't see many of the mid period works as 'heroic' in nature. It has more to do with a generally more expansive and developed manner of composition.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
It depends how you see these 'periods'. I don't see many of the mid period works as 'heroic' in nature. It has more to do with a generally more expansive and developed manner of composition.

With the concept 'heroic period' I'm always referring to orchestral music and that expansive way of composition you mention, but in this sense, could the Triple fit in the Heroic period or it is a work which remains in the pre-heroic style of the first two symphonies and the first two (or three) piano concertos?

[chopithoven]

Anyone can post here, not only Rodney.

[spaceray]

Sorry chopitoven,this is way over my head.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
With the concept 'heroic period' I'm always referring to orchestral music and that expansive way of composition you mention, but in this sense, could the Triple fit in the Heroic period or it is a work which remains in the pre-heroic style of the first two symphonies and the first two (or three) piano concertos?

You only have to consider the date of the work 1803/4 and the other compositions of the period Eroica, Fidelio, Waldstein to realise this belongs to the heroic category or 2nd period works. The expansive first movement is typical of the time.

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
You only have to consider the date of the work 1803/4 and the other compositions of the period Eroica, Fidelio, Waldstein to realise this belongs to the heroic category or 2nd period works. The expansive first movement is typical of the time.

Yes, fine, I've just finished listening the allegro and I'm convinced, but I have a problem:

When it comes to the form of this first movement, I can't discern if the development section starts in a moment in which the piano is left alone making a rising scale after an orchestral tutti, and in which it exposes the second theme (or the theme stated by the basses alone in the start) with the cello alone, or in another moment in which the cello starts with a completely new melody after an orchestral tutti which becomes the second theme, or in the moment in which the three soloists make a virtual trio togheter with an almost unhearable and not effective accompaniment of the winds. If the development starts there, then it is very short, because not many bars after that, the recapitulation starts, so I don't know. Where does the development start!?

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Rod Corkin: In your article about the Eroica, when you say "a wealth of subsidiary
and transitional ideas that culminates in the overwhelming climax of the development",
are you referring to a section of the development in which there are 40 bars of
continous fff, sf and f by the whole orchestra, which is inmediately followed
by the beatiful theme stated by the oboes in e minor?

You asked Rod, but I'm familiar with the score. The subsidiary ideas don't end with the climax to which you referred (which, BTW, is ff not fff); the oboe theme beginning in bar 284 is new, as are the striding bass line from bar 338 forward and a violin figuration from bar 567 forward.

B3 broke so much new ground it's hard to know where to begin. For me its most radical aspect is its huge time-scale and orchestral tone. Here, for the first time, we have a work that can carry a whole concert; the cumulative effect of its architecture and unrelenting intensity almost overwhelms one even today.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
You asked Rod, but I'm familiar with the score. The subsidiary ideas don't end with the climax to which you referred (which, BTW, is ff not fff); the oboe theme beginning in bar 284 is new, as are the striding bass line from bar 338 forward and a violin figuration from bar 567 forward.

B3 broke so much new ground it's hard to know where to begin. For me its most radical aspect is its huge time-scale and orchestral tone. Here, for the first time, we have a work that can carry a whole concert; the cumulative effect of its architecture and unrelenting intensity almost overwhelms one even today.

I agree with your considerations, and indeed, the orchestral climax starts with ff.
But anyway, I need somebody to answer my question stated above.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Where does the development start!?

I don't have a score of the work and off hand I can't remember - I'll try and find time to listen to it later today.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
With the concept 'heroic period' I'm always referring to orchestral music and that expansive way of composition you mention, but in this sense, could the Triple fit in the Heroic period or it is a work which remains in the pre-heroic style of the first two symphonies and the first two (or three) piano concertos?

Perhaps an understanding of the motivation for composing the work might help. It's been awhile since I've given the work a good listening to and when I get some time I'll check it out again.

[Michael]

As I cannot read a score, the only help I can offer is with regard to a particular recording. On the Istomen/Stern/Rose version, conducted by Eugene Ormandy, the development section begins at 8 minutes 30 seconds into the first movement.
Beethoven introduces a theme at the end of the orchestral tutti which is not repeated until the end of the recapitulation, so its non-appearance at the end of the instrumental exposition can be misleading. (I am calling it the instrumental exposition for want of the correct term? I mean the section where the solo instruments first appear.)
The development section opens like the instrumental exposition with the main theme played quietly on the cello.
Hope this makes sense,

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited February 09, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Michael:
The development section opens like the instrumental exposition with the main theme played quietly on the cello.
Hope this makes sense,

Michael

Are you meaning it starts with the same theme, or another theme on the cello? It's unconventional to find a Beethoven development with the same theme of the exposition, even in another key.