Handel vs Bach cont.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
...PS when you are in a position to say to me 'I told you so' I'll let you know!

Rod,
Well, we are all aware that this would never happen under any circumstances, so I wil just remind you that this whole thread began with the rather insipid statement that if a composer didn't care about instrumentation, then he didn't care about interpretation either, which has since been retracted because its author realized that it was ludicrous on the face of it, and went on from there. If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I was NOT saying that, but if you choose to take umbrage, so be it. As has been pointed out elsewhere, making assertions based on ones own opinion can be a slippery slope.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, we are all aware that this would never happen under any circumstances, so I wil just remind you that this whole thread began with the rather insipid statement that if a composer didn't care about instrumentation, then he didn't care about interpretation either, which has since been retracted because its author realized that it was ludicrous on the face of it, and went on from there. If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I was NOT saying that, but if you choose to take umbrage, so be it. As has been pointed out elsewhere, making assertions based on ones own opinion can be a slippery slope.
Regards, Gurn

Believe me, I DO read your posts, hence my total confusion concerning your point with Op20.

If you are refering above to my comment that Bach could not have been too concerned about the interpretation of the '48' then I have certainly retracted nothing. In this particular case my assertion was based on the position that if their primary purpose was as technical excercises (upon reflection I recall that they were originally composed for his son, perhaps someone can confirm this?) then matters of artistic interpretation were less of a concern to Bach. Though with these keyboard pieces I personally see very little necessity for argument about interpretation in any case, other than the nature of the instrument to be used (which I also mentioned in my original point).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 05, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Believe me, I DO read your posts, hence my total confusion concerning your point with Op20.

If you are refering above to my comment that Bach could not have been too concerned about the interpretation of the '48' then I have certainly retracted nothing. In this particular case my assertion was based on the position that if their primary puropose was as technical excercises (upon reflection I recall that they were originally composed for his son, perhaps someone can confirm this?) then matters of artistic interpretation were less of a concern to Bach. Though with these keyboard pieces I personally see very little necessity for argument about interpretation in any case, other than the nature of the instrument to be used (which I also mentioned in my original point).

Rod,
Well, we never actually got to interpretation, whch is fine with me, and my only point was that instrumentation was apparently less relevant to the actual composers of the work (and not just Bach) than it is to us, since in many cases they didn't even specify instrument at all. I see now that I should have just said that and left it alone so as not to get into a protracted discussion, and as I am now older and no doubt wiser than I was a mere four days ago, I WILL leave it at that.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Congratulations, Rod, you have surpassed me. Please take the seat next to me and I welcome you to Olympus.

If I have surpassed you then would you mind if they make my chair next to you on Olympus just that little bit larger than your own? Not that I'm being petty or anything.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, we never actually got to interpretation, whch is fine with me, and my only point was that instrumentation was apparently less relevant to the actual composers of the work (and not just Bach) than it is to us, since in many cases they didn't even specify instrument at all. I see now that I should have just said that and left it alone so as not to get into a protracted discussion, and as I am now older and no doubt wiser than I was a mere four days ago, I WILL leave it at that.
Regards, Gurn

It was my original point too that in many cases the instrumentation was left to the performer - in those days a proportion of the 'package' was left to the disgression of the performer in a way that we do not see with compositions by Beethoven, although in the early piano music the option was there for the use of the Harpsichord and in a few other cases a wind instrument could be replaced by a stringed equivilent. These were financial concerns more than musical. I was making no point beyond this. It was just your point with op20 that threw me.

I'm sure Beethoven regarded the various arrangements of his music as just part of the music selling business. I suspect he would be less concerned with the performance of these works compared to that of the 'originals'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 05, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, we never actually got to interpretation, whch is fine with me, and my only point was that instrumentation was apparently less relevant to the actual composers of the work (and not just Bach) than it is to us, since in many cases they didn't even specify instrument at all. I see now that I should have just said that and left it alone so as not to get into a protracted discussion, and as I am now older and no doubt wiser than I was a mere four days ago, I WILL leave it at that.
Regards, Gurn

Keep in mind that people in Bach's and Handel's day viewed themselves from a different perspective than we view ourselves today. The idea of preserving a musical composition for the future was not very relevant to them. Bach may very well have written a cantata one week and because he was in a hurry didn't bother to repeat specifications of instrumentation or vocal parts per page. He knew what they were and the performers would know based on his instructions. But he didn't care if anyone knew the week after as he would have a new cantata for them then.

[Chaszz]

I'm listening to a station in Hamburg, that operacast.com pointed me to, that is playing some excerpts from Handel's 'Julius Caesar'. This is really beautiful!! There is an aria playing now that is piercing my heart.

I also just remembered that in 1960, when I was a starving art student in San Francisco (actually living on $9.00 a week, believe it or not), I had a small portable phonograph. I bought a 3-LP album of Handel's 'Saul' that was on sale. But I never once listened to it!! Those were my Mozart days, when I was transfigured by the 'Prague' and 'Jupiter' symphonies. But someone must have loved 'Saul' enough to release it then. If Rod thinks Handel is under-appreciated now, he was even more so then. It was not even generally known by classical music listeners that Handel had written vocal works at all (except of course for we-know-what). Ironic that I bought this and never even listened to it.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 09, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I'm listening to a station in Hamburg, that operacast.com pointed me to, that is playing some excerpts from Handel's 'Julius Caesar'. This is really beautiful!! There is an aria playing now that is piercing my heart.

I also just remembered that in 1960, when I was a starving art student in San Francisco (actually living on $9.00 a week, believe it or not), I had a small portable phonograph. I bought a 3-LP album of Handel's 'Saul' that was on sale. But I never once listened to it!! Those were my Mozart days, when I was transfigured by the 'Prague' and 'Jupiter' symphonies. But someone must have loved 'Saul' enough to release it then. If Rod thinks Handel is under-appreciated now, he was even more so then. It was not even generally known by classical music listeners that Handel had written vocal works at all (except of course for we-know-what). Ironic that I bought this and never even listened to it.

For a long time I never took Handel seriously myself, despite Beethoven's good words on the man. This is a result of the longstanding establishment culture and its almost cult-like obsession with Bach...I bet! These days it is Handel that needs to be studied more, even now there is only one CD version of Messiah I can recommend. Chances are your old recording of Saul would not have been up to much.

I have recordings of about 15 Handel operas and all are well worth listening too, and all contain those melting arias somewhere in the plot. They usually cost a fortune on CD though, at least here in the UK.

Saul is regarded as the first of H's 'great' oratorios. I can recommend the version of this on Naxos. The others are much more expensive!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
For a long time I never took Handel seriously myself, despite Beethoven's good words on the man. This is a result of the longstanding establishment culture and its almost cult-like obsession with Bach...I bet! These days it is Handel that needs to be studied more, even now there is only one CD version of Messiah I can recommend. Chances are your old recording of Saul would not have been up to much.

I have recordings of about 15 Handel operas and all are well worth listening too, and all contain those melting arias somewhere in the plot. They usually cost a fortune on CD though, at least here in the UK.

Saul is regarded as the first of H's 'great' oratorios. I can recommend the version of this on Naxos. The others are much more expensive!

As I mentioned to you once before, I suggest you try eBay if you're interested in purchasing CDs reasonably priced. I just tried 'ebay.co.uk' and got some hits on Handel operas and oratorios. You have to press 'items available to UK' at the right in order to see items from the US or elsewhere. There is a Tamerlano there now by Gardiner - don't know if you like him - reasonably, from a fellow who says he is selling off a collection. I have built a Wagner collection at half-price by using eBay. Of course you must be patient and go back regularly to see when new things arrive.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 10, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
As I mentioned to you once before, I suggest you try eBay if you're interested in purchasing CDs reasonably priced. I just tried 'ebay.co.uk' and got some hits on Handel operas and oratorios. You have to press 'items available to UK' at the right in order to see items from the US or elsewhere. There is a Tamerlano there now by Gardiner - don't know if you like him - reasonably, from a fellow who says he is selling off a collection. I have built a Wagner collection at half-price by using eBay. Of course you must be patient and go back regularly to see when new things arrive.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 10, 2003).]

I have Tamerlano by Gardiner. It is the best available of this work, though G's direction is a little angular and the sound rather dry. By coincidence (and by my strict playing order) I have H's Admeto in my Walkman today. This is an old recording (and thus cheaper) reissued on Virgin and surprisingly this is very good. Forget ALL of Harnoncourts early Handel recordings.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rod:
There are some incredibly high notes for the soloist and she simply has not the range - a purely technical issue. You would agree if you heard it. I'll keep an ear open for Bartoli however.

It has suddenly dawned on me that I already have a Handel recording starring Bartoli, namely the opera Rinaldo, with David Daniels. She stems from the 'big chested' school of soprano to my ears, a little too much of the 'beautiful voice'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:
It has suddenly dawned on me that I already have a Handel recording starring Bartoli, namely the opera Rinaldo, with David Daniels. She stems from the 'big chested' school of soprano to my ears, a little too much of the 'beautiful voice'!

Are you never satisfied?Emma Kirkby too pretty ,Cecilia Bartoli too beautiful?What exactly are you seeking in the female voice of the Handel singer .You did not rate Daniels voice on this recording ,too pretty as well?

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Are you never satisfied?Emma Kirkby too pretty ,Cecilia Bartoli too beautiful?What exactly are you seeking in the female voice of the Handel singer .You did not rate Daniels voice on this recording ,too pretty as well?

By 'beautiful voice' I was referring to 'bella voce'. What I meant really was too much voice! Both singers have a problem with excessive vibrato, but Daniels has a stronger countertenor voice than is the norm.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Christopher Hogwoods book on Handel says that he only ever had one pupil, Princess Anne, this can't possibly be true he taught hundred of singers didn't he?

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Christopher Hogwoods book on Handel says that he only ever had one pupil, Princess Anne, this can't possibly be true he taught hundred of singers didn't he?

I'm sure Princess Anne would not have been taught singing! I think it was harpsichord lessons in this case. Handel developed a number of singers talents, that is true.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin