Handel vs Bach cont.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Joy, JS Bach died in 1750. It may be his son, Johann Christian, you're referring to. He is known as the 'London Bach'.

Chaszz

You're right, thanks for clearing that up!

Joy

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Chaszz,
Yeah, I know, and I don't mean to be the pigeon on the statue either. It's just that the Violin Concerto was my first love as a genre and brought me into classical music, so I am , I don't know, 'picky' about it, I guess. I have the three concertos several times over by some pretty good fiddlers (Stern, Perlman, Menuhin, Heifetz etc.) who are, I know, not baroque specialists, but I have to say, as a matter of personal taste, that they, and Brandenburg #3 which is another VC really, just sound like a lot of crosscut saws trying to cut the instrument in two. I realize that this is a major failing on my part and I stand humble before you, but there it is. I DO have some good baroque fiddle music (Tartini, Biber, Telemann, Matteis etc.) but they are played on period instruments, and I have heard that one of the best of these players, Andrew Manze, has done Bach recently, so maybe I will give it another shot. After all, millions over centuries must be on to something.
Regards, Gurn

By 'crosscut saws' you may mean Bach's sometime habit of writing a solo part in an unbroken succession of eighth notes, which can get monotonous to some people but doesn't bother others. My aunt and her second husband, whom I described elsewhere, used to compain about this to me. It doesn't bother me because to me the inspired melody is always present.

Be that as it may, here is the first movement of the Violin Concerto in E, in an old recording by the Solisti di Zagreb. I have loved this piece for a long time. The main theme to me is really classical in that it evokes feelings of the spirit of ancient Greek sculpture and architecture, in its joy, beautiful rhythm and songful phrasing. The development section makes wonderful progressions thru the relative minor and back to the major and back and forth again, with the violin sometimes floating above the rhythmic accompaniment like a cloud above the horizon. This ends with the return to the theme, like a songbird landing on a favorite branch.
http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

[spaceray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:
[B] I play his Menuet (very nice) and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring which I enjoy very much especially at this time of year. What songs are in your book? I may look into it.

It is titled "My first book of Classical Music" and offers "29 Themes by Beethoven Mozart ,Chopin and other great composers in Easy Piano Arrangements" published by Dover I have learned the Bach Minuet as well as "Sheep May Safely Graze" and have just started to work on Beethoven's Minuet in G .
My teacher says the book is a bit too advanced for me(we are only six months into this)he suggests I wait a bit before moveing on with this.Also this Christmas some wag bought me the"Moonlight Sonata" all three movements also a Dover publication very expensive and beautiful however I have prudently returned it and bought the Oxford Dictonary Of Music Terms in infinantly more usefull volume I venture to say.

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:

It is titled "My first book of Classical Music" and offers "29 Themes by Beethoven Mozart ,Chopin and other great composers in Easy Piano Arrangements" published by Dover I have learned the Bach Minuet as well as "Sheep May Safely Graze" and have just started to work on Beethoven's Minuet in G .

[/B]

Thanks. I also like 'Sheep May Safely Graze' and have it but have not yet found time on my agenda to learn it. I have it on my piano so it's one of my next pieces to learn when I can find the time. Lovely piece.
I also play the 'Minuet in G'. Good luck with it.

Joy

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I shall have to keep putting more tracks up.

Yes please do Chaszz,I have put your last offering on the computer at work and listen to it while I write the menus for the day.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
My comment concerning Bach's interest in the interpretation of these works was not a critisism, just an observation. Handel himself on occasion left much to the taste of the performers in his chamber works.

As far as I can recall Beethoven actually scored for the double bass in his septet!

Having listened closely to a Bach violin concerto on the radio just two days ago I have sympathy with you on this issue, though the performance was rough (and yet the presenter described it as 'sublime'!). Whilst on the matter of radio, Classic FM have been playing Handels op6 concertos quite a lot recently, played by the Collegium Musicum 90 - it's the roughest account I have yet heard so avoid it like the plague, not one hint of grace anywhere. Get Hogwood's set with the Handel & Haydn Society on Decca - absolutely first rate.

A major critisism of Handel has been his tendency to 'borrow' old stuff for new works, well I can tell you Bach did just the same, in fact he 'borrowed' a whole cantata minus the recitatives for his Christmas Oratorio.

Rod,
The theme recycling bit interests me in that I was reading the New Grove (B of course) last night, and Alan Tyson who was reviewing the works portion went on to list a whole panoply of areas where B did the same. I don't have it with me to enumerate now, but he would describe a theme and then say "and it is the same as it used here and here and here etc." My guess is that this was a fairly widespread and acceptable practice.
Actually, I don't believe that B scored out the double bass. Once again I haven't the material at hand to offer a quote, but in the liner notes of CPO's Complete CM for Winds, the author notes that the Septet has "bass accompaniment ADDED "ad libitidum", as was the custom of the day", and I can't remeber if it was that work or the Octet (103), that it had been re-scored by another to add the bass 'with Beethoven's knowledge'.
Finally, forgive me for not discerning the nature of your comment, you are not frequently given to idle observation, so I naturally assumed that you were serious. Mea culpa.
Regards, Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:

Having listened closely to a Bach violin concerto on the radio just two days ago I have sympathy with you on this issue, though the performance was rough (and yet the presenter described it as 'sublime'!). Whilst on the matter of radio, Classic FM have been playing Handels op6 concertos quite a lot recently, played by the Collegium Musicum 90 - it's the roughest account I have yet heard so avoid it like the plague, not one hint of grace anywhere. Get Hogwood's set with the Handel & Haydn Society on Decca - absolutely first rate.

A major critisism of Handel has been his tendency to 'borrow' old stuff for new works, well I can tell you Bach did just the same, in fact he 'borrowed' a whole cantata minus the recitatives for his Christmas Oratorio.

This morning I was subjected to a rendition of (I think) Canadian Brass playing several Handel overtures. I would much rather have listened to the Collegium Musicum Op. 6 than that! One of the Op. 6 concerti was played last night (Collegium Musicum, in fact) but I wasn't able to listen too closely as I was in traffic.

The criticism regarding usage of old materials in new works is lame. We see Beethoven's Prometheus theme popping up all over for one thing. And, as you mentioned, Bach was notorious for not only using his older works/themes but other composers works/themes in his writing. This sort of thing predates Bach by Centuries, anyway. Many sacred motets were changed to fit secular text. Handel's use of same materials on a repeated basis is not unusual.

[Chaszz]

With all the distinguished conversation appearing here in the last day or so (this thread does seemed to have a real life of its own) it occurs to me that some may have missed my MP3 posting of the first movement from Bach's E Major Violin Concerto, which was put up only yesterday but is now buried some ways above. At the risk of redundancy I'll list it again

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

Anyone who wishes to read my deathless commentary on this piece can find it above.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
With all the distinguished conversation appearing here in the last day or so (this thread does seemed to have a real life of its own) it occurs to me that some may have missed my MP3 posting of the first movement from Bach's E Major Violin Concerto, which was put up only yesterday but is now buried some ways above. At the risk of redundancy I'll list it again

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

Anyone who wishes to read my deathless commentary on this piece can find it above.

Chaszz,
That was a much nicer rendition than I have heard before, and your poetic commentary made me try that much harder to give it a fair shot. Sometimes I even disappoint myself! And the strange thing is, I like to think of myself as a fancier of Bach, but his concertos (with the exception of a couple of the Brandenburgs) just don't make it for me. I appreciate your efforts though, and will listen to it again under different circumstances.
Thanks, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:

As far as I can recall Beethoven actually scored for the double bass in his septet!

Rod, just got home and checked out that CPO disk I mentioned earlier. The Septet was arranged as an Octet with double bass added in 1812 by Georg Drushetzky with B's approval. In any case, this is not an "I told you so", it gets back to the point I was trying to make earlier that arrangments were commonly changed around even with the composer's knowledge and/or approval, but you have now rendered this all moot by saying you didn't mean that, so the heck with it. ;-))
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod, just got home and checked out that CPO disk I mentioned earlier. The Septet was arranged as an Octet with double bass added in 1812 by Georg Drushetzky with B's approval. In any case, this is not an "I told you so", it gets back to the point I was trying to make earlier that arrangments were commonly changed around even with the composer's knowledge and/or approval, but you have now rendered this all moot by saying you didn't mean that, so the heck with it. ;-))
Regards, Gurn

I really don't get all this octet business you are talking about, every recording of op20 is a SEPTET INCLUDING THE BASS! Perhaps you are thinking of a different work (though I can think of no other septet for winds and strings by Beethoven!)? If not what was the original scoring in your mind of this septet without the bass?

The septet op20 consists of the clarinet, bassoon, horn, violin, viola, cello and bass.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 04, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I really don't get all this octet business you are talking about, every recording of op20 is a SEPTET INCLUDING THE BASS! Perhaps you are thinking of a different work (though I can think of no other septet for winds and strings by Beethoven!)? If not what was the original scoring in your mind of this septet without the bass?

The septet op20 consists of the clarinet, bassoon, horn, violin, viola, cello and bass.

Rod,
The arrangement you list is the way B wrote it. 1812 it wa rearranged (with B's knowledge) for 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 oboes 2 bassoons and double bass, and was frequently played in that arrangement. I have both of those as well as the B Op 38 arrangement for pinao trio (with violin or clarinet). It was also arrnaged for string quintet and frequently played that way, although I don't have that version yet. The point being that the arrangement was less important than the music, I guess. It was the popularity of the piece itself, which he was not particularly fond of (I don't understand that) that B didn't care for, not the frequent rearrangements.
Regards, Gurn

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
With all the distinguished conversation appearing here in the last day or so (this thread does seemed to have a real life of its own) it occurs to me that some may have missed my MP3 posting of the first movement from Bach's E Major Violin Concerto, which was put up only yesterday but is now buried some ways above. At the risk of redundancy I'll list it again

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

Anyone who wishes to read my deathless commentary on this piece can find it above.

Chaszz, enjoyed this very much. Thanks for posting it and others. Am really enjoying your selections.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
The arrangement you list is the way B wrote it. 1812 it wa rearranged (with B's knowledge) for 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 oboes 2 bassoons and double bass, and was frequently played in that arrangement. I have both of those as well as the B Op 38 arrangement for pinao trio (with violin or clarinet). It was also arrnaged for string quintet and frequently played that way, although I don't have that version yet. The point being that the arrangement was less important than the music, I guess. It was the popularity of the piece itself, which he was not particularly fond of (I don't understand that) that B didn't care for, not the frequent rearrangements.
Regards, Gurn

Of course this was the way Beethoven wrote it, this was what I was talking about. Your discussion of an octet arrangement with an added bass was misleading as Beethoven already had a bass in the score to start with - your words inferred to me that you thought the original was without a bass and in the arrangement it was added. In fact you stated that you did not believe Beethoven scored for the bass. Given the scoring of the 1812 version that you have at last identified means a virtual rewrite (you initially stated above that the octet was simply the septet with the addition of the bass!), the mentioning of the ad libitum bass in this case seems rather incidental. I am fully aware there are various arrangements made by others of Beethoven pieces made in his lifetime, some of which he corrected personally - some of these are even attriibuted as Beethoven's own and given opus numbers. This point I believe to be a cause of confusion and if these numbers were removed from his opus list altogether I would not complain. PS when you are in a position to say to me 'I told you so' I'll let you know!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 04, 2003).]

[Andrea]

Originally posted by Rod:
Have I now a seat on Olympus next to you Andrea?

Congratulations, Rod, you have surpassed me. Please take the seat next to me and I welcome you to Olympus.