Handel vs Bach cont.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I've got it already. And just got in the Norrington. As a rule I listen to the Eroica of each new set to get a feel for how I might like the particular conductor. With Norrington I was not too impressed--but only listened to the exposition of the first movement. When I have more time I will give it another listen. (What I heard of the 8th on the radio I thought absolutely fantastic.)

The Norrington set is something of a mixed bag, hence it is not my first recommendation, the sound quality is variable too, but is a very good deal now it's reissued on Virgin at sub-Naxos price. I suggest you give the 3rd a few listenings to. I don't think you'd like my recommendation of Savals recording on Astree!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
That's as may be but if you think the soloist is awful I would probably LOVE it.Did I suggest to you to listen to C Bartoli sing Vivaldi,I must have been temporarily insane,or suffering from chocolate madness.
With a clearer head I beg you ,please please
offer more "Rare Pages"more Handel,more Beethoven!

There are some incredibly high notes for the soloist and she simply has not the range - a purely technical issue. You would agree if you heard it. I'll keep an ear open for Bartoli however.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:

With a clearer head I beg you ,please please
offer more "Rare Pages"more Handel,more Beethoven!

Well considering the response to my previous Handel efforts offered here, I don't think this page is quite ready for them yet. When a collective taste for Baroque is developed beyond that of 'easy listening' I may reconsider. I'll generously continue with the Beethoven. Of course you'll get the Solomon overture at the posting for the next rare piece, Beethoven's arrangement of the fugue section from this piece.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 31, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
When a collective taste for Baroque is developed beyond that of 'easy listening' I may reconsider.

I'd just like to mention that I am not bothering to reply to every calumnous slur upon the good name of Bach which comes from this direction. I consider that I have done what I can in this cause, and have not made any progress. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. You can plant seeds in the ground and water it, but if it is not fertile, nothing will grow. I will put up tracks from time to time, but will not waste my energy replying to all these goads, provocations and insults that are hurled in Bach's direction. Only occasionally will I react, as in this case, saying that 'easy listening' is ANYTHING but a description of Bach's music.

[spaceray]

Say,this thread really is going again!
Chaszz,I loved the piece of Bach that you offered and keep it handy on my desk top for frequent listenings,I love the St Matthew Passion and always find myself in tears over it.For Christmas I got a book of elementary piano pieces of Bach and have already learned the minuet in G (I play it very badly).

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Then if Bach was not too concerned with the instrumentation then he was not too concerned with the interpretation. Not surprising considering their primary purpose as technical excercises - at least this is what they sound like to me. That being said I'd rather hear them on an old 'keyboard' than a new one!

What a delight to be #200 on Rod's thread! I feel immortal! I have judiciously refrained from posting here, but I must wonder about this one. Much, if not most, baroque music was not written for a specific instrument, but rather for the instruments within the range and with a capability of playing the music. So the implication that if one doesn't care about the instrumentation, then one doesn't care about the interpretation does not really hold water, IMO. In addition to the main line being for a variety of instruments, the continuuo line can be bassoon, bass viol, harpsichord or whatever else can play it, and it frequently is not even written out, merely implied. Beethoven actually did the same with his Wind & String Septet, which is often accompanied by double bass in the style of the day, making it a perfectly acceptable octet. As for them being technical excersises, in fact, they were! At least many of them, such as "Art of the Fugue", which I have in an absolutely splendid version of by the Juilliard String Quartet, of all people. The fact was that Bach wrote many of these pieces for no one's entertainment except his own, and he was so bloody good at it that people have been playing and listening to them for 250 years AS entertainment. This is not to champion Bach, BTW, since I am an advocate of later styles as I have stated before, but fair is fair, and even though I don't believe the man could write a violin concerto worth a damn, he could sure put a fugue together! That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

[Andrea]

Congratulations Rod and welcome to the "Over 200 Club". George Frideric would be proud...

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Say,this thread really is going again!
Chaszz,I loved the piece of Bach that you offered and keep it handy on my desk top for frequent listenings,I love the St Matthew Passion and always find myself in tears over it.For Christmas I got a book of elementary piano pieces of Bach and have already learned the minuet in G (I play it very badly).

I play his Menuet (very nice) and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring which I enjoy very much especially at this time of year. What songs are in your book? I may look into it.

By the way (FYI) On this day in 1782 - JS Bach dies in London.

Joy


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 01, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
As promised a few days ago, here is the joyful Bouree from Bach's 3rd Suite for Orchestra in D. (This is the Suite which also contains the famous Air, later adapted for violin G string, which I posted awhile ago).

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Orch_Suite_3_Bouree.mp3

Nice! This comes from one who has not always cared for Bach's orchestral works.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Say,this thread really is going again!
Chaszz,I loved the piece of Bach that you offered and keep it handy on my desk top for frequent listenings,I love the St Matthew Passion and always find myself in tears over it.For Christmas I got a book of elementary piano pieces of Bach and have already learned the minuet in G (I play it very badly).

Speceray, I'm glad you're enjoying those. It is not you I was reacting to. It was only the starter of the thread that my response was directed at. To repeat, in the future I will as usual note every veiled and unveiled slur upon Bach, but will only react occasionally in words.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
I
By the way (FYI) On this day in 1782 - JS Bach dies in London.

Joy

Joy, JS Bach died in 1750. It may be his son, Johann Christian, you're referring to. He is known as the 'London Bach'.

Chaszz

[Chaszz]

I don't believe the man could write a violin concerto worth a damn, [but] he could sure put a fugue together! Regards, Gurn[/B]

Gurn, the allegro of Bach's violin concerto in E major is one of the treasures of music, IMHO. And not far behind is the Concerto for Two Violins in D minor, with a wonderful allegro followed by one of the most sublime andantes anywhere. I shall be posting tracks of these soon, if I can locate versions that are not taken too fast, as is the practice with much of the original-instruments people.

It is beginning to be a little surprising to me that many members seem to know Bach mainly as a contrapuntalist with a theoretical bent, when there are so many examples of other sides to his output that are by turns passionate, humanizing, warm and tender. I shall have to keep putting more tracks up.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Gurn, the allegro of Bach's violin concerto in E major is one of the treasures of music, IMHO. And not far behind is the Concerto for Two Violins in D minor, with a wonderful allegro followed by one of the most sublime andantes anywhere. I shall be posting tracks of these soon, if I can locate versions that are not taken too fast, as is the practice with much of the original-instruments people.

It is beginning to be a little surprising to me that many members seem to know Bach mainly as a contrapuntalist with a theoretical bent, when there are so many examples of other sides to his output that are by turns passionate, humanizing, warm and tender. I shall have to keep putting more tracks up.

Chaszz,
Yeah, I know, and I don't mean to be the pigeon on the statue either. It's just that the Violin Concerto was my first love as a genre and brought me into classical music, so I am , I don't know, 'picky' about it, I guess. I have the three concertos several times over by some pretty good fiddlers (Stern, Perlman, Menuhin, Heifetz etc.) who are, I know, not baroque specialists, but I have to say, as a matter of personal taste, that they, and Brandenburg #3 which is another VC really, just sound like a lot of crosscut saws trying to cut the instrument in two. I realize that this is a major failing on my part and I stand humble before you, but there it is. I DO have some good baroque fiddle music (Tartini, Biber, Telemann, Matteis etc.) but they are played on period instruments, and I have heard that one of the best of these players, Andrew Manze, has done Bach recently, so maybe I will give it another shot. After all, millions over centuries must be on to something.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
What a delight to be #200 on Rod's thread! I feel immortal! I have judiciously refrained from posting here, but I must wonder about this one. Much, if not most, baroque music was not written for a specific instrument, but rather for the instruments within the range and with a capability of playing the music. So the implication that if one doesn't care about the instrumentation, then one doesn't care about the interpretation does not really hold water, IMO. In addition to the main line being for a variety of instruments, the continuuo line can be bassoon, bass viol, harpsichord or whatever else can play it, and it frequently is not even written out, merely implied. Beethoven actually did the same with his Wind & String Septet, which is often accompanied by double bass in the style of the day, making it a perfectly acceptable octet. As for them being technical excersises, in fact, they were! At least many of them, such as "Art of the Fugue", which I have in an absolutely splendid version of by the Juilliard String Quartet, of all people. The fact was that Bach wrote many of these pieces for no one's entertainment except his own, and he was so bloody good at it that people have been playing and listening to them for 250 years AS entertainment. This is not to champion Bach, BTW, since I am an advocate of later styles as I have stated before, but fair is fair, and even though I don't believe the man could write a violin concerto worth a damn, he could sure put a fugue together! That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

My comment concerning Bach's interest in the interpretation of these works was not a critisism, just an observation. Handel himself on occasion left much to the taste of the performers in his chamber works.

As far as I can recall Beethoven actually scored for the double bass in his septet!

Having listened closely to a Bach violin concerto on the radio just two days ago I have sympathy with you on this issue, though the performance was rough (and yet the presenter described it as 'sublime'!). Whilst on the matter of radio, Classic FM have been playing Handels op6 concertos quite a lot recently, played by the Collegium Musicum 90 - it's the roughest account I have yet heard so avoid it like the plague, not one hint of grace anywhere. Get Hogwood's set with the Handel & Haydn Society on Decca - absolutely first rate.

A major critisism of Handel has been his tendency to 'borrow' old stuff for new works, well I can tell you Bach did just the same, in fact he 'borrowed' a whole cantata minus the recitatives for his Christmas Oratorio.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 02, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Congratulations Rod and welcome to the "Over 200 Club". George Frideric would be proud...

Have I now a seat on Olympus next to you Andrea?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin