Handel vs Bach cont.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by dice45:
Chazz,
yeah, i know those Armstrong recordings.
Yes, they are a bit more funky.

Concerning Paul Whileman, ROTFLMAO, well, if i wear my historian's glasses, i try not to let the view blur by wishful thinking.

Hmmmh, did i call Whiteman an artist? Cannot remember [cheeky ]

When Whiteman was the masses adored star, Armstrong was but a musician's musician.
When Armstrong later became a bit more popular, the funkyness was gone down the tubes and it was gleeful entertainment only.
Well, Europeans always were after the genuine honest Jazz and not that fond the Popular/Entertainment field, stylistically in direct proximity to Jazz back then.
Many Jazz fans i talked to put Armstrong in the proximity of the obedient nigger in "Uncle Tom's hut" by M.Beecher-Stowe. I cannot comment that, never read that book.
So Armstrong's entertainment did not win him friends only, shellac records circling around with Armstrong's Jazz on it.

Mobbing: from your profile i see you are from NYC you have to explain to me what you understand by that term. Mobbing to me is NeoGermanEnglish as used by the YUPPIEs, the self-important ones. Mobbing has a much wider meaning in Germany than what my dictionary (Collins/Pons Unabridged) tells me. "Mobbing" we use for all sorts, methods, techniques of harrassment and bullying a co-worker out of company in the professional field.

You are right with Armstrong's swing for yourself. I am hooked by Bix' swing and even more, by his imaginative phrasing. On par with Bird and Brownie. And i am not naming a 3rd on that level, even if Sonny Rollins' name crosses my mind.

As you live in NYC, it should be no problem for you to get a copy of "The Dean Benedetti recordings of Charlie Parker" (on Mosaic records) 6 vinyl discs crammed full of Bird's solos and a few of Benedetti.
Then you listen to all 6 records in a row. Now that's a treatment

Whoa, you talk about Bix's imaginative phrasing, but when speaking of Armstrong, all you give him credit for is funkyness?
The Hot Fives and Sevens have the most imaginative solos (and ensemble lead playing) anywhere in jazz, except for Charlie Parker.

Also, don't worry, I've heard plenty of Charlie Parker, and love his work also.

'Mobbed' in Americanese English means surrounded by a large, eager, grasping crowd of fans, as in Sinatra/Paramount Theatre or Beatles/1964.

As for the rest of your Armstrong observation here, I have replied in a posting on the Dream Concert thread.

[Chaszz]

Back, temporarily at least, to the main business of this thread. First a quote on Bach's music from Goethe (who is making multiple appearances today elsewhere in this forum):

"It is as though eternal harmony were conversing with itself, as it may have happened in God's bosom shortly before he created the world. Thus profoundly was my soul stirred and I felt as if I had neither eyes nor ears nor any other senses, and had no need of them."

2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

Another movement or two from this Suite will appear here soon.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

[/B]

I'm sorry that the highs sound a little distorted here compared with the CD. I'll have to try to find a better ripping program.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

"It is as though eternal harmony were conversing with itself, as it may have happened in God's bosom shortly before he created the world. Thus profoundly was my soul stirred and I felt as if I had neither eyes nor ears nor any other senses, and had no need of them."

2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

[/B]

What a beautiful quote and how true especially of this music. One of my all time absolute favourites of Bach. Simply beautiful.

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

Another movement or two from this Suite will appear here soon.

And what is the selling point of this famous piece? Why its very simplicity of course, which results in a much stronger melodic line. If only he had always composed in this manner. Of course it is harder to succeed in finding this simplicity when the temptation is all too easy to stick notes everywhere in a mass of contrapuntal mathematics. Perhaps this explains B's initial lack of enthusiasm for the fugal form - ie it (at least the traditional German form of it) was too 'easy'.

Talking of 'thinning out' notes, Beethoven through his revision of his original version of op18/1, which you will all hear soon(ish!) on the rare page, did precisely that. The revision is much thinned out compared to the original (although the original could be construed as more conventionally dramatic). With Handel it seems to me this thinning out was a natural part of his music writing whether it be largo or allegro.

I think the general move to a greater simplicity and subtlety of harmony is a fundamental part of the nature of Beethoven's later works.

PS you will have the good fortune of hearing another Handel piece when B's arrangement of H's Overture for Solomon is presented at the 'rare' page, for I will kindly upload the original (one of my favourite H pieces) at Peter's link to the page at this forum. This piece too is a testimony to simplicity.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 11, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
And what is the selling point of this famous piece? Why its very simplicity of course, which results in a much stronger melodic line. If only he had always composed in this manner. Of course it is harder to succeed in finding this simplicity when the temptation is all too easy to stick notes everywhere in a mass of contrapuntal mathematics.

The 'selling point' is beauty. Many simple melodic lines are not therefore automatically beautiful. To posit simplicity as an absolute value would be like saying Greek temples as a class are beautiful and Gothic cathedrals are not, because the latter are too complex. Each must be judged on its own premises, not on any standard imposed from the outside which may have nothing to do with the artist's intentions.

To call all of Bach's counterpoint mathematical in nature is wrong. In some didactic keyboard pieces, which Sorrano prefers, this can be fruitfully argued, and the result may be intellectual satisfaction rather than emotional fulfillment, as Sorrano points out. But you will notice I haven't put any of these up. In the religious music and the secular orchestral works the counterpoint is used emotionally. The various strands support and push the emotion forward; try again the Cum Sanctu Spiritu from page 3 of this thread (do a find on 'www'). If this is mathematical obfuscation rather than great emotion then I am the King of Siam. The many who love and have loved Bach are not mostly moved by mathematical satisfaction. It is time to realize that unforunately not everyone can see the forest; some can only see the trees.



'The temptation is all too easy to stick notes everywhere in a mass of contrapuntal mathematics.' This may be your judgment of what Bach does with polyphony, but unfortunately some cannot see the forest for the trees. I refer you again to the Cum Sanctu Spiritu on Page 3 of this thread, or to a new posting from the B Minor Mass:
www.zigmund.com/DonaN.mp3

In these the emotion is amplified, not scattered, by the mutually supporting voices of the counterpoint. There may be intellectual exercises in the didactic works for keyboard which Sorrano favors, but in the religious music and the secular orchestral music it is emotion which fuels the counterpoint.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Chaszz]

I regret in the above posting the text should end at the first mention of the forest and the trees. The rest of it is a draft of an earlier version and should not have appeared. I can't seem to ever get these right the first time. This is why I never put in a suffix saying "This has been edited by..."; I am badly in need of an editor.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I regret in the above posting the text should end at the first mention of the forest and the trees. The rest of it is a draft of an earlier version and should not have appeared. I can't seem to ever get these right the first time. This is why I never put in a suffix saying "This has been edited by..."; I am badly in need of an editor.

There is an edit button next to the reply button on each post. None of us use editors! Look below, I've just used it (yet again)!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 11, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

The 'selling point' is beauty. Many simple melodic lines are not therefore automatically beautiful.

It would not have been so effective had it been lost in a sea of counterpoint as is too often the case with Bach. Put it this way, this track is the most Handelian sounding you've yet posted! Of course Handel wrote dozens of adagios and largos that are at least the equal of this piece. In fact I would go so far to say that Handel IS the largo!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
In these the emotion is amplified, not scattered, by the mutually supporting voices of the counterpoint. There may be intellectual exercises in the didactic works for keyboard which Sorrano favors, but in the religious music and the secular orchestral music it is emotion which fuels the counterpoint.

I do have to mention this, that as a pianist I have loathed Bach for his counterpoint. As a composer I have admired Bach for the very same reason. I could listen to his fugues all day, but don't ask me to play them!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I do have to mention this, that as a pianist I have loathed Bach for his counterpoint. As a composer I have admired Bach for the very same reason. I could listen to his fugues all day, but don't ask me to play them!

I have to agree that playing Bach well is no easy task and it takes me far longer to learn and memorise a Bach fugue than almost anything else - part playing though is so important for pianists, and not just in Bach, which is why most teachers have insisted on Bach down the ages, including Beethoven's teacher Neefe.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have to agree that playing Bach well is no easy task and it takes me far longer to learn and memorise a Bach fugue than almost anything else - part playing though is so important for pianists, and not just in Bach, which is why most teachers have insisted on Bach down the ages, including Beethoven's teacher Neefe.

Their value as teaching aides is obvious, but as a listener they seem to me to be emotionally detached. A friend of mine played one of these fugues at her home on the piano and I sat and listened with another guy present. She played the piece without fault but I was left utterly unmoved by the experience, yet the others could not contain their joy.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Their value as teaching aides is obvious, but as a listener they seem to me to be emotionally detached. A friend of mine played one of these fugues at her home on the piano and I sat and listened with another guy present. She played the piece without fault but I was left utterly unmoved by the experience, yet the others could not contain their joy.

Technical skills are not enough. One could play a Handel or Beethoven piece perfectly, but without expression the performance is virtually worthless. You have complained (and justly) about the many poor performances of Beethoven. I think Bach is largely misunderstood as well.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Technical skills are not enough. One could play a Handel or Beethoven piece perfectly, but without expression the performance is virtually worthless. You have complained (and justly) about the many poor performances of Beethoven. I think Bach is largely misunderstood as well.

I agree entirely - if you look at the score of the 48 there are no dynamics, articulation markings or phrasing, which is how many pianists play them! Personally I find the Preludes more satisfying in general than the fugues, some of which are rather dry and academic.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

I agree. I have a recording of the 48 by Andras Schiff and it's quite pleasant but some I've heard are rather robotic in playing. Same with the Chopin Etudes. I also have a recording of Murray Perahia (Opus 10, Opus 25) of Chopin done excellently in my opinion.

Joy