Handel vs Bach cont.

[dice45]

Joy,
the telephone was invented by Alexander Reis and the coal filament light bulb by a German mechanic (1st name Heinrich, to tired to dig up the last name) who had illuminated his workshop by lightbulbs 15ys before Edison toyed around with the topic.

Rod and all,

Bach & Händel & artist's handwriting: In my own profession which is my art and my passion too, i can tell an engineer's personality from looking at his design and be right on spot ... engineering is art, from a certain POV. And i have certain hunches what an artist's handwriting, be he a painter, composer, writer, sculpturer, whatever, tells about his personality. And if i read about the person later, i find the info about his personality to be well-aligned with my hunches in most cases.

Bach and Händel are different personalities alltogether and i can feel this clearly from their music (i am not only looking at the Messiah alone).
Today i found a booklet with a comparison between Bach and Händel attached to my Messiah record. Having a comparison between Bach and Händel concerning their music as well as their life, their way to achieve their personal goals and success (or rather not, in Bach's case) and their personality.
Händel the guy to get along well, turning retreats into victories, able to connect relationships to mighty and influential music lovers and to handle th relationship so lighthanded and virtuously easy on words that he could keep his own POVs, had not to eat the humble pie ... and Bach,always stubborn, always sensed as troublemaker by his superiors, always striking back, writing an over-complex style in letters as going far as to be in struggle with language and using his personal music as last resort to escape from the world ... like a drug ...
I feel it's pointless to even try to compare them, like apples and oranges. I like them both, for differing reasons.


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Greets,
Bernhard

[Peter]

Originally posted by dice45:
Joy,
the telephone was invented by Alexander Reis and the coal filament light bulb by a German mechanic (1st name Heinrich, to tired to dig up the last name) who had illuminated his workshop by lightbulbs 15ys before Edison toyed around with the topic.

Very interesting and certainly news to me!


I feel it's pointless to even try to compare them, like apples and oranges. I like them both, for differing reasons.

Absolutely and this whole thread has not changed my views on that one bit! However it has been interesting to hear some of the pieces Rod put up (I was already familiar with the Bach pieces Chaszz supplied, which just goes to show how much Handel lays gathering dust). It is incredible to think Handel wrote around 40 operas and 20 oratorios of which hardly anything is ever performed. I was wondering if Rod could recommend a list of what he considers the best of the operas and oratorios?

[/B]

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited December 05, 2002).]

[dice45]

Drugs ....
well not only drugs to Bach himself .... also drugs to me. Back then in university, I used to dope myself by alternatively playing Jimi Hendrix and Bach violin sonatas/partitas at elevated volume ... to come in the right mood for solving differntial equations ... or for understanding, make that envisioning complex problems ... or for envisioning mechanical or electronic design solutions.
For solving differntial equations the mix from "Fuga Alla Breve" and "Machine Gun" was just perfect.. oops forgot Coltrane "My Favourite things" and "Summertime" (Atlantic records). My mother used to ask me something like what drug i had taken or why else i had such a dopey face expression. She was quite scared ....

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Greets,
Bernhard

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Everywhere people, especially musically educated people, rate Bach the superior, without even knowing why from my experience, for they have typically heard very little Handel other than Messiah. It is just assumed. When I made this point to some musicians I know in Paris they all laughed at me, assumimg I thought this way because I am English (even though I regard Handel as a German!).

Don't forget that musicians are fed Bach on account of his contributions to harmony and counterpoint. His chorales alone provide an open textbook on harmonic progression. The Well Tempered Clavier is another textbook of counterpoint. Most rules that music students are taught are based on these very principles that Bach exemplified in his works. Hence the exposure and favoritism of Bach. Appreciation for Handel is typically based on a more emotional response. Even though Handel composed, using wonderful harmonic progressions and inventive counterpoint, there are no "open textbooks" among his works that specifically demonstrate the principles behind the theory. This does not make Bach superior or less superior. But it has given him an edge in exposure and hence his popularity.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Don't forget that musicians are fed Bach on account of his contributions to harmony and counterpoint. His chorales alone provide an open textbook on harmonic progression. The Well Tempered Clavier is another textbook of counterpoint. Most rules that music students are taught are based on these very principles that Bach exemplified in his works. Hence the exposure and favoritism of Bach. Appreciation for Handel is typically based on a more emotional response. Even though Handel composed, using wonderful harmonic progressions and inventive counterpoint, there are no "open textbooks" among his works that specifically demonstrate the principles behind the theory. This does not make Bach superior or less superior. But it has given him an edge in exposure and hence his popularity.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. Bach's 150-year popularity with the general classical music public, as opposed to musicians, is testimony that his music (especially the church music) has emotional strengths which go far beyond didactic educational purposes. As for harmonic progressions, based on the MP3 movements which Rod and I put up here, I see little harmonic imagination on Handel's part. He mostly uses tonic, dominant, subdominant and other basic standard harmonic relationships, while Bach ranges far afield.

[Joy]

Originally posted by dice45:

Joy,
AFAIR, Bell's and Edison's biggest successes were not based on their invention; telephone and lightbulb were invented in Germany but not ackowöedges as epochal and Edison and Bell took it and made it available. Which is a similar achievement.

[/B]

I couldn't find Alexander Reis in any of my history books or encyclopedias, however, I did find a Philipp Rice (1834-1874). This is what I found:

"Nearly 140 years ago Philipp Rice presented an apparatus, with which one tones and thus also language with the help of the electric current transfer can. This apparatus consisted of two parts, which Rice (in 1863) called telephone (transmitter) and reproduction apparatus (receiver). Philipp Rice is however not recognized everywhere as the inventor of the telephone. That is because of the fact that he did not succeed in such a way that a practical application would have resulted". I guess that's where Alexander Graham Bell entered and suceeded. Still looking for the lightbulb story.

While I'm on the subject I thought of another man who could fit the list. An author, Charles Dickens, not from my country I know, but a brilliant writer. Here in the states, around this time (Christmas) they bring out his 'Christmas Carol'. Just wonderful, a classic!

Joy

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
I couldn't find Alexander Reis in any of my history books or encyclopedias, however, I did find a Philipp Rice (1834-1874). This is what I found:

"Nearly 140 years ago Philipp Rice presented an apparatus, with which one tones and thus also language with the help of the electric current transfer can. This apparatus consisted of two parts, which Rice (in 1863) called telephone (transmitter) and reproduction apparatus (receiver). Philipp Rice is however not recognized everywhere as the inventor of the telephone. That is because of the fact that he did not succeed in such a way that a practical application would have resulted". I guess that's where Alexander Graham Bell entered and suceeded. Still looking for the lightbulb story.

While I'm on the subject I thought of another man who could fit the list. An author, Charles Dickens, not from my country I know, but a brilliant writer. Here in the states, around this time (Christmas) they bring out his 'Christmas Carol'. Just wonderful, a classic!

Joy

I was under the impression Edison did not invent the light bulb but worked to perfect it with a long-lasting filament. He settled on tungsten after trying over a thousand other materials.

Among great Americans I would like to mention are Frank Lloyd Wright, one of the greatest, if not the greatest, architect whover lived...and Louis Armstrong, who gave jazz its form. His finest creative period was when he was in his twenties making 78 RPM records. Though there is only 3 or four hours of this available now, it is simply wonderful improvisation. At that time he was reportedly playing 6 or 8 hours a night and sometimes taking trumpet solos of thirty successive choruses, so if a good amount of it could have been recorded, I believe it would stand ably alongside the works of the great classical composers. This early work should not be judged by the genial older Armstrong later known by a wider public, whose trumpet creativity had largely declined in old age.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I was under the impression Edison did not invent the light bulb but worked to perfect it with a long-lasting filament. He settled on tungsten after trying over a thousand other materials.

Among great Americans I would like to mention are Frank Lloyd Wright, one of the greatest, if not the greatest, architect whover lived...and Louis Armstrong, who gave jazz its form. His finest creative period was when he was in his twenties making 78 RPM records. Though there is only 3 or four hours of this available now, it is simply wonderful improvisation. At that time he was reportedly playing 6 or 8 hours a night and sometimes taking trumpet solos of thirty successive choruses, so if a good amount of it could have been recorded, I believe it would stand ably alongside the works of the great classical composers. This early work should not be judged by the genial older Armstrong later known by a wider public, whose trumpet creativity had largely declined in old age.

Other people agree on the Edison issue. Do you happen to know the name of the person who invented the light bulb originally?

I agree with you about Frank Lloyd Wright. His 'Taliesin West', winter home, which he began in 1938, is nearby in Scottsdale, Arizona. It's a work of art. I suppose, while we're at it, we should include Henry Ford in the list as well.

Interesting about Louis Armstrong. I hadn't realized all of that.

Joy

[dice45]

Joy & Chazz,
can be i am wrong about Reis' 1st name, probably your right it's "Philipp" ...
having just a nasty divorce from my internet family in the bones, i am not in the mood to dig up some specifics ... i would have to re-read a book. L8er.

Concerning Jazz musicians, i don't need a book to read. Louis Armstrong, agreed, had huge impact, he was the 1st protagonist to make Jazz popular and brought a quite different, unique feeling to people.
But most of his impact was inside the musician's community hence expert2expert level IMO. Sad to say so: Paul Whiteman had a much bigger impact.
I personally do not adore Armstrong as musician, i find him too nice, too streamlined. I like Chicago style very much, this is the last era in Jazz with collective improvisations. I am a great fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Beiderbecke had a remarkable impact on fellow musicians as well as on public minds, considered that it was only 3 years between his rise and his death.
But talking about Jazz, there comes another evil genius in mind: Charlie "Bird" Parker.
Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker are the only two Jazz musicians deeply influencing all other Jazz instrumentalists and not only those playing trumpet in one case and alto sax in the other.
Parker's impact on lifestyle, on the public man, particularly young people i consider as genuinely evil: His lifestyle was highly self-destructive and -- unfotunately -- highly expemplaric. Many young people wanted to be as hip as he was, "to be like Bird, you have to do like Bird" he made drug addiction popular like noone before. Worse, he cemented this example function in generations of musicians of coming styles. "to play like Bird, you have to do like Bird" and noone of those fellow musicians with inferior skills, giftedness, knowledge would realize that Bird played like he did inspite of the drugs, not because of it. At his time, noone would ever reach the level of fresh inventiveness and creativity in melodic improvisation he was easily dwelling at. Later Sonny Rollins and Clifford Brown reached his level of this particular way melodic improvisation; But even for them this were happy occasions of high altitude flights, not standard flight height. Remarakbly, both did without drugs. For Clifford Brown it was never a question to use drugs, he was the clean one. Rollins had recovered from drug use, TMK. And so had Coltrane, BTW. Coltrane later died from another drug: his own music. But he was a angelic spirit in his last ys, not an evil one.
Charlie Parker however had created a generation of musicians being an evil expample to their adorers and this has not been limited to Jazz, this spread over all contemporary styles. Think about Jimi Hendrix.

All, particularly Rod,
Parker's improvisations are to me a musical gem box like, e.g. Händels works are for Rod. I feel fond of him, his music accompanied me since my youth and probably will until i die. I am not the least downtalking Parker's musical importance. But i am looking different at the man's lasting impact on our world which i have to consider evil by the same principles i consider J.S.Bachs and Beethoven's lasting impact as good and enhancing.

Had Clifford Brown not been called by the Gods at age 26, he could have become the lasting positive counterweight.

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Greets,
Bernhard

[spaceray]

Had Clifford Brown not been called by the Gods at age 26, he could have become the lasting positive counterweight.

[/B][/QUOTE]

It's a crying shame that Clifford Brown died so young ,what a magnificent talent.

There are some very amusing stories about Louis Armstrong in a great book by Mezz Mezzrow titled "Really the Blues" I don't think you may believe all of the tales but they are very funny to read.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by dice45:
Louis Armstrong, agreed, had huge impact, he was the 1st protagonist to make Jazz popular and brought a quite different, unique feeling to people.
But most of his impact was inside the musician's community hence expert2expert level IMO. Sad to say so: Paul Whiteman had a much bigger impact.
I personally do not adore Armstrong as musician, i find him too nice, too streamlined. I like Chicago style very much, this is the last era in Jazz with collective improvisations. I am a great fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Beiderbecke had a remarkable impact on fellow musicians as well as on public minds, considered that it was only 3 years between his rise and his death.
But talking about Jazz, there comes another evil genius in mind: Charlie "Bird" Parker.
Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker are the only two Jazz musicians deeply influencing all other Jazz instrumentalists and not only those playing trumpet in one case and alto sax in the other.
Parker's impact on lifestyle, on the public man, particularly young people i consider as genuinely evil.

Bernhard,

When you say Louis Armstrong is "too nice and steamlined", are you familiar with the Hot Five and Hot Seven records of 1925-1928? These are earthy and searing, not "nice", in my judgment.

These records not only heavily influenced all jazz musicians but sold like hotcakes everywhere, and Louis was mobbed when he went to Europe a few years later. Also, as music, they defined jazz, turning it from a folk music into a soloist's art music, singlehandedly, while still maintaining the New Orleans collective ensemble in the beginning and ending choruses.

Plus as swing, compare any other musician circa 1923-24, even Sidney Bechet, with Louis' sense of swing on the King Oliver and Clarence Williams records of those years. No comparison.

On Charlie Parker, you are right. The only later jazz soloist who could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the young Armstrong, he squandered his genius on fast living.

And Bix, also. A great player, a great squanderer.

When you put forth Paul Whiteman as more important than Louis, and talk at length about the effect the artist had on the people of his time, you are making the man-in-the-street the arbiter of artistic accomplishment. This makes Britney Spears the ultimate of the present day -- but as an artist?? I don't think so. Besides, Louis' influence can still be heard all over today, and Paul Whiteman? Where? The effect which the artist has on posterity is much more important than the effect on his own time.

The ancient Greek sculptor Polykleitos made two statues -- one incorporating the advice and suggestions of ordinary people, and another privately on his own. Afterward, everyone was united in saying the first one was awful, and the second one beautiful.

[dice45]

Chazz,
yeah, i know those Armstrong recordings.
Yes, they are a bit more funky.

Concerning Paul Whileman, ROTFLMAO, well, if i wear my historian's glasses, i try not to let the view blur by wishful thinking.

Hmmmh, did i call Whiteman an artist? Cannot remember [cheeky ]

When Whiteman was the masses adored star, Armstrong was but a musician's musician.
When Armstrong later became a bit more popular, the funkyness was gone down the tubes and it was gleeful entertainment only.
Well, Europeans always were after the genuine honest Jazz and not that fond the Popular/Entertainment field, stylistically in direct proximity to Jazz back then.
Many Jazz fans i talked to put Armstrong in the proximity of the obedient nigger in "Uncle Tom's hut" by M.Beecher-Stowe. I cannot comment that, never read that book.
So Armstrong's entertainment did not win him friends only, shellac records circling around with Armstrong's Jazz on it.

Mobbing: from your profile i see you are from NYC you have to explain to me what you understand by that term. Mobbing to me is NeoGermanEnglish as used by the YUPPIEs, the self-important ones. Mobbing has a much wider meaning in Germany than what my dictionary (Collins/Pons Unabridged) tells me. "Mobbing" we use for all sorts, methods, techniques of harrassment and bullying a co-worker out of company in the professional field.

You are right with Armstrong's swing for yourself. I am hooked by Bix' swing and even more, by his imaginative phrasing. On par with Bird and Brownie. And i am not naming a 3rd on that level, even if Sonny Rollins' name crosses my mind.

As you live in NYC, it should be no problem for you to get a copy of "The Dean Benedetti recordings of Charlie Parker" (on Mosaic records) 6 vinyl discs crammed full of Bird's solos and a few of Benedetti.
Then you listen to all 6 records in a row. Now that's a treatment

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Greets,
Bernhard

[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited December 06, 2002).]

[spaceray]

Great Canadian Choral composers,Charles Harriss ,Percival Illsley,Healey Willan,Claude Vivier,Godfrey Ridout,Harry Somers,Harry Freedman,Violet Archer,Jean Coultard and R Murray Schafer.I venture to say these will be names you have never heard before.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
[

The ancient Greek sculptor Polykleitos made two statues -- one incorporating the advice and suggestions of ordinary people, and another privately on his own. Afterward, everyone was united in saying the first one was awful, and the second one beautiful. [/B]

Chaszz,this was brilliant!!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


It is incredible to think Handel wrote around 40 operas and 20 oratorios of which hardly anything is ever performed. I was wondering if Rod could recommend a list of what he considers the best of the operas and oratorios?

They are all good from what I have heard, but of the oratorios you will recall I have mentioned Israel in Egypt, Solomon, Theodora and Jephtha recently. Also consider Saul and The Triumph of Time and Truth (the latter, in Italian, is a bargain on Naxos and is 3 disks filled with absolute gems - if you don't like this you'll never like any Handel). Also consider the odes and masques - Acis and Galatea, Alexanders Feast, L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato. These are more poetic (thanks to the texts). Of the operas Orlando, Ariodante, Serse, Julius Ceasar, Alcina. It's more difficult to choose here, the operas are typically the most dramatic pieces. If you're in England HMV have a sale on and many of these very expensive items are half price or less. I have bought most of the operas in sales, so ridiculously expensive are they priced. Of the church music Dixit Dominus and the Chandos Anthems will not fail to delight. You can't really fail with Handel regardless of what piece you think about, for he has a winning dramatic formula, but if your're considering buying anything on CD ask me first! But the Penguin and Grammophone guides are reliable for Handel, if not Beethoven!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 07, 2002).]