Handel vs Bach cont.

[Andrea]

Well, Bernhard, you had a nice short list of German geniuses and ask if any of us would like to contribute a list from our home country. Now, I am an American but Austria is my home. I could be here all day making a list for American geniuses but here is one for Austria:
Christian Doppler, mathematician (Doppler Effect); Gustav Klimt, painter; Gregor Mendel, called the "Father of Genetics"; Klemens Wenzel von Metternich, diplomat; Ferdinand Porsche, auto designer; Joseph Pulitzer; Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, J.Strauss, Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg, Wolf,Berg (composers); Karl Böhm and Herbert von Karajan, conductors.

Now of course this doesn't count all of the famous composers from other countries who made Vienna their home: Beethoven, Brahms, von Suppe, Vivaldi and others.

Yes, variety is the spice of life no matter where you call home. Wouldn't it be boring if every composer wrote the same kind of music. Thank god for the influences that these people had on all of us. The world is a better place for that.

[Peter]

Originally posted by dice45:

Now please anyone feel invited to muse about of a list of geniuses of your home country. You will find different guys and even for similar messages & innovations, you may find e.g. a painter where you would expect a musician. Or whatever.

Interesting that you should mention this as here in the UK we have just been subjected to a national poll to find our greatest Briton ( a silly exercise in the first place)- unfortunately most people here seem unable to think back beyond the 20th century and it was interesting (though predictable)to see how badly the arts faired : Purcell, Elgar (John Lennon got far more votes than these two!) Turner, Shakespeare, were just a few who didn't get a look in. They were surpassed by Princess Diana who nearly knocked Churchill off the number 1 spot. I can think of many other worthies who should have done that!

As far as I am aware the English never have had the great regard for Handel that you said - during his lifetime the operas were so unpopular he was forced to concentrate on oratorio - even Messiah took a decade to be appreciated in England. It was John Gay and the Beggar's opera that the great British wanted to hear. Only some 240 years after Handel's death has anyone bothered to turn his London home (where he lived for over 20 years) into a museum.

Something in the British character is inherently suspicious of genius, we are uncomfortable with it and feel much safer with mediocrity.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dice45:
Let me give you the small list of German geniuses:
Otto I.(emperor), Albertus Magnus (cathedral builder), A. Dürer (painter), M. Luther (reformer of religion), N. Kopernikus (astronomer), J.S.Bach (composer), I. Kant (philosopher), F.G.Klopstock (poet, lyricist), L.v.Beethoven (pianist & composer), J.W.v.Goethe (poet, lyricist),
A.Einstein (physicist). List closed.
Those guys had tracable influence on my home country's history.

I would add Wagner and Heisenberg. Virtually all of modern classical music comes from 'Tristan und Isolde'. And the composer certainly made a big impression on the German public. As for Heisenberg, the uncertainty principle may turn out to be more important for the future than relativity. Certainly quantum mechanics has touched our lives in many more ways, technologically speaking, than relativity has. And may in the furure, expecially quantum entanglement and 'action-at-a-distance'.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
(Perhaps I shall start a new controversy here). I think that Mozart contributed greatly in orchestration, unlocking the possibilities of tonal colors in the orchestra to a greater extent than Haydn. (Here is the red flag thrown to the floor) This bypassed Beethoven, possibly because of his deafness. Not merely I, but no less an authority than Leonard Bernstein, held that Beethoven was a mediocre orchestrator, notwithstanding his titanic greatness as a composer. Orchestration, in my opinion, following Mozert's lead, came to fruition in the late Romantics, with Brahms, Wagner, Mahler and R. Strauss, among others.

Don't forget Berlioz! Also, Mozart was instrumental in influencing German Opera composers of the 19th Century. His operas, in my opinion, are his single greatest contribution to music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Also, Mozart was instrumental in influencing German Opera composers of the 19th Century. His operas, in my opinion, are his single greatest contribution to music.

And the Piano Concertos!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

As far as American geniuses go my immediate first thought was Benjamin Franklin with his many, many inventions and discoveries not to mention a great statesman and one of our founding fathers. Samuel Morse (the telegraph); Crawfore Long (ether) which helped the medical field immensely. Richard Hoe (Printing Press); not to mention the famous Thomas Edison, one of the most influential inventors for the 20th century, and Alexander Bell, who helped expand the comminucation world. Of course, there's many, many more in all different fields as well, but, these just came to mind.

Joy

[dice45]

Andrea,
go thru that list and ask at every name:
What was the mental innovation?
In which way a new mental horizon was opened?
Was the mental innovation limited to fellow experts or did it reach the proverbial man on the street.
Consider that Austria's history was linked to Germany's before the bloody French Revolution 1789.
On first glance i spot 1 1/2 names fitting into "genius" in the sense of mental inovator and horizon-opener: Mendel & Metternich.
the half one: Metternich was an effective politician affecting peoples lives but i doubt he was revealing any new ideas making the people changing their minds
Mendel: shattered the unconditional religious belief in the Holy Bible's Genesis book. Explained how biological life evolved. Tha uis reaching even over Austria, this has had worldwide impact. Maybe not as direct and intense as Beethoven. But admitted, he had its impact.
Noone of the others, methinks.

Chazz,
Wagner: disagreed. Impact inside the musical world. applies for Mozart, Haydn, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, J.&R.Strauss as well.
Heisenberg: i would agree. iwold go as far and say, era of local horizon-openers is over, era of global ones begins. A.Einstein is last German genius as well as 1st global genius. And Heisenberg i would sense too as a global genius. Nevertheless, although Heisenberg has a bigger impact on quantum physics, none of his impact on Zeitgeist comes close to "Everthing is relative" and similar Einstein statements. It is not Einstein's general an particular relativity theory which makes him the horizon widener: it is the simple statement "Everthing is relative": putting in words what everyone was feeling but noone before him able to give a name. The era of classic Newton physics was over, nothing was absolute anymore, "Everthing is relative". That's it, that makes Einstein the horizon-opener.

Could be that Stephen Hawking's "Small history of time" makes him a genius, a star much brighter than Einstein and Heisenberg together. Who knows?
Suddenly poeple on the street are discusing phenomonons and mental models that noone excpet a few eggheads could even dream to access before.

Joy,
AFAIR, Bell's and Edison's biggest successes were not based on their invention; telephone and lightbulb were invented in Germany but not ackowöedges as epochal and Edison and Bell took it and made it available. Which is a similar achievement.
R.Hoe, yes, agreed. Morse, yes, probably.
Long: disagreed, impact remains among experts.
For America you certainly should mentions George Washington and methinks, Franklin's impact as politician to public minds was bigger than his inventions.
I see 3 names which belong to that list, no matter how (un)pleasant this may look. C.Vanderbuilt,J.P.Morgan,Rockefeller.
Ooops, forgot Al Capone. He was having impact on public mind! He was bringing the concept of organized criminality.
An American evil-genius.

Peter,
very interesting, thanxalot!!
as we are on music, noone here on the continent seems to realize what wonderful and essential music William Byrd has written ... I have his Pavans and Gaillards for the harsichord on vinyl, Davitt Moroney playing. And Julian Bream also seems to be very fond of Byrd. I only have some pieces for lute, okok, i know that Bream is not considered as politically correct by orthodox lutenists. I don't care...

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Greets,
Bernhard

[spaceray]

No one wrote more beautiful poetry and then set it to music than the Germans,here is
Das Rosenband
Im Fruhlingsschatten fand ich sie;
Da band ich sie mit Rosenbandern.
Sie fuhlt' es nicht und schlummerte.

Ich sah sie an;mein Leben hing
Mit diesem Blick an ihrem Leben!
Ich Fuhlt'es wohl und wuft' es nicht.

Doch lispelt' ich ihr sprachlos zu
Und rauschte mit den Rosenbandern:
Da wachte sie vomSchlummer auf.

Sie sah mich an; ihr Leben hing
Mit diesem Blick an meinem Leben,
Und um uns ward's Elysium.

The Chain Of Roses
I found her in the spring shade and I bound her with chains of roses; she did not feel it and went on slumbering.I looked at her;by this glance my life hung from her life.I felt this but did not realize it.But I whispered speechlessly to her and rustled the chains of roses. Then she woke up from her sleep.She looked at me:by that glance her life hung from my life,and round us suddenly was Elysium.

Friedrich Gottlieb Klopstock
(translation by Leonard Forster)

[Peter]

Originally posted by dice45:

Peter,
very interesting, thanxalot!!
as we are on music, noone here on the continent seems to realize what wonderful and essential music William Byrd has written ... I have his Pavans and Gaillards for the harsichord on vinyl, Davitt Moroney playing. And Julian Bream also seems to be very fond of Byrd. I only have some pieces for lute, okok, i know that Bream is not considered as politically correct by orthodox lutenists. I don't care...

Orlando Gibbons and Thomas Tallis are two other outstanding English musical figures from that time. Since everyone here is also mentioning great people from other fields, I would say that Isaac Newton, Willian Shakespeare and Thomas Paine were amongst some of the greatest Britain has produced.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:

Heck, can't we leave that silly comparative ranking game?

As I have said, 'silly' Beethoven himself played the same kind of game!

Originally posted by dice45:


What i was wondering (as i have few data on it): had Händel a Mozart-like or Beethoven-like impact on British minds?

Handel has no impact whatsoever in the British mind. Which is why I didn't get into him myself until a relatively late date. Like everywhere else, the British too believe, even if it is not openly admitted, that Bach is the higher of the 'two peaks'. And like everywhere else, they are in error.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[dice45]

Rod,
would Beethoven himself hypothetically show up on an internet forum with an incognito moniker, he would be banned within short, i am sure

Interesting that the British esteem Händel lower than Bach.
I myself am undecided here. I compared some vocal works from Bach (St.Matthew passion and Xmas oratorio) with both Händel Messiah performances i have. To be honest, i never enjoyed Bach's cantatas, oratorios, passions, masses, even if played by Karl Richter, Philipp Herweghe an the like. The Messiah i like very much. But in the meantime i found 2 Händel works outright boring me: Water Music and Fireworks Music. That's an audiophile brass & percussion demo, so i sense it. Sorry.

I think it depends on the opus. Händel wrote gorgeous stuff in one area, say, oratorios, cantatas, masses. Bach had another focus. His concerts & solo instrument works, for organ, harpsichord, violin, cello are gems. Passacaglia for organ, chromatic fantasia & fugue, Goldberg variations, well-tempered clavier, musical offering, art of the fugue are crown jewels IMO. Not to forget the Ciaconna and Fuga Alla Breve from the violin sonatas & partitas. The Fuga is reaching into 20th century, harmonically and rhythmically and i remember some preludes and fugues from the WTC, end of book 1 and book 2 to to which this statement also is applying.
Provided the performer is up to it, i do not know such breathtaking rhythmics from other composers. The music is often dancing and swinging.
Charles Mingus once said, would Bach live today, he would be a bassist. To judge that, you should have heard Mingus and other good Jazz bassists play

Nevertheless i am eager to explore the Händel field a bit more

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Greets,
Bernhard

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
And the Piano Concertos!

Perhaps all piano music--what was I thinking, anyway?!

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:
Rod,
would Beethoven himself hypothetically show up on an internet forum with an incognito moniker, he would be banned within short, i am sure

I wouldn't bar him, based on his quotes I have read.

Originally posted by dice45:

....Interesting that the British esteem Händel lower than Bach.

Everywhere people, especially musically educated people, rate Bach the superior, without even knowing why from my experience, for they have typically heard very little Handel other than Messiah. It is just assumed. When I made this point to some musicians I know in Paris they all laughed at me, assumimg I thought this way because I am English (even though I regard Handel as a German!).


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 04, 2002).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by dice45:

Could be that Stephen Hawking's "Small history of time" makes him a genius, a star much brighter than Einstein and Heisenberg together. Who knows?
Suddenly poeple on the street are discusing phenomonons and mental models that noone excpet a few eggheads could even dream to access before.
[/B]

Stephen Hawking is a great candidate. I think he's amazing and he's books are wonderful.
_____________________________________________

Originally posted by dice45:

AFAIR, Bell's and Edison's biggest successes were not based on their invention;
telephone and lightbulb were invented in Germany
[/B]

To whom are you referring? Sorry, I'm not up on this.

_____________________________________________

Originally posted by dice45:
For America you certainly should mentions George Washington.

[/B]

I can't believe I forgot about old George! And my birthday is on the same day as his! I was almost named Georgia! How could I forget!!

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited December 04, 2002).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Since everyone here is also mentioning great people from other fields, I would say that Isaac Newton, Willian Shakespeare and Thomas Paine were amongst some of the greatest Britain has produced.

Most certainly. Good Choices!!