Handel vs Bach cont.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Rod:
There is no direct connection between musical taste and/or judgement, and academic learing!

Perhaps not, but there is between taste and/or judgment, and experience (musical or life). Besides, did I say my learning was all academic? Or that it will ever finish?

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
In reply to this, I can't resist calling attention to the Wagner music mp3 I've posted under the topic of 'An intrusion' which has only drawn one response so far.
I found myself listening to this piece three times yesterday, even though already thoroughly familiar with it.

Oh yes, the Siegfried Idyll! Beautiful, and it shows that Wagner could do more than storm as in the Ride of the Valkyries, or be erotic as in much of Tristan und Isolde. Most of Parsifal is in the same manner as the Siegfried Idyll.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
In reply to this, I can't resist calling attention to the Wagner music mp3 I've posted under the topic of 'An intrusion' which has only drawn one response so far.
I found myself listening to this piece three times yesterday, even though already thoroughly familiar with it.

I have already listened to it Chaszz!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Here is the wonderful chorus ‘Cum Sanctu Spiritu’ from Bach’s Mass in B Minor, performed by the Netherlands Chamber Choir and the Orchestra of the 18th Century under Frans Brüggen.

The exposition of the theme ends at minute 1:03, and the rest is development up to the shattering climax. Each variation of the strands of of the main theme is seemingly foreordained and feels exactly right to keep building the tension, as in Beethoven. Emotion advances to a temporary climax and then cools before each assault on a new plateau.

The final climax begins at minute 3:12, and I hope I don’t offend anyone by drawing attention to a direct erotic parallel here. There is not one peak but several, and at 3:34 a series of descents begin, both of which are not unlike what happens in ‘real life’ on a good day. This was no doubt unconscious on Bach’s part, since he was a devout churchgoer. But he did father 23 children and evidently knew something about that aspect of life. As John Rasmussen pointed out above, Wagner wrote erotically in ‘Tristan und Isolde’. For me, this chorus by Bach has always seemed the most powerful and direct parallel with the erotic I’ve ever heard in music.

This excellent performance is not the most emotional one available, but is the most conductor-controlled and transparent for hearing all the parts clearly. It is possible to hear, if one tries, the great pair of trumpet triplets in the last few bars right before the end. These notes were more distinguishable in the older, slower pre-original instruments interpretations of years ago, which were however murkier in general.

To appreciate the structure of the climax, listeners may want to back their players up to about minute 3:00 and then play through, several times.
http://www.zigmund.com/CumSanctuSpiritu.mp3

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
[/b]

Here is the wonderful chorus ‘Cum Sanctu Spiritu’ from Bach’s Mass in B Minor, performed by the Netherlands Chamber Choir and the Orchestra of the 18th Century under Frans Brüggen.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well Bruggen is certainly a good judge of Beethoven, so I'll pay extra attention to this one. Bruggen's version of Beethoven's Violin Concerto and Creatures of Prometheus are fantastic and by far the best currently available I would say.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 11, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Here is the wonderful chorus ‘Cum Sanctu Spiritu’ from Bach’s Mass in B Minor, performed by the Netherlands Chamber Choir and the Orchestra of the 18th Century under Frans Brüggen.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Given it a good listening to. Sonically the best that you've offered so far, Bruggen keeps things tight and the momentum going. I can't imagine the slower interpretations you mention improving the piece. Still the same issues raise their ugly heads, apart from the trumpet theme there so no real anthem or textural contrasts to catch the memory in this track - that is the counterpoint becomes the ..er.. sole point of the piece. I think when you compare these efforts with the Handel pieces the latter are more memorable, whereas I tend to forget Bach pieces as soon as the last note has died, which is why I struggle to remember the names of any of the many Bach pieces I have heard over the years! Perhaps I have had things to good with Beethoven and Handel and I expect too much?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Given it a good listening to. Sonically the best that you've offered so far, Bruggen keeps things tight and the momentum going. I can't imagine the slower interpretations you mention improving the piece. Still the same issues raise their ugly heads, apart from the trumpet theme there so no real anthem or textural contrasts to catch the memory in this track - that is the counterpoint becomes the ..er.. sole point of the piece. I think when you compare these efforts with the Handel pieces the latter are more memorable, whereas I tend to forget Bach pieces as soon as the last note has died, which is why I struggle to remember the names of any of the many Bach pieces I have heard over the years! Perhaps I have had things to good with Beethoven and Handel and I expect too much?

I haven't heard this piece for 6 months, yet can recall it far more readily than any of the Handel pieces you have offered - it is simply a matter of familiarity. Having said that, some of the Bach arias from the Mathew passion are unforgetable after even one hearing - I think it is simply a matter of your own personal taste which changes over time - you may well hear these pieces in twenty years time and not believe that you couldn't see anything in them!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:

- I think it is simply a matter of your own personal taste which changes over time - you may well hear these pieces in twenty years time and not believe that you couldn't see anything in them!

That is so true. Your tastes do change over time. There's music I listened to 20 yrs. ago that I didn't quite 'get' and now they're some of my favourite pieces.

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
you may well hear these pieces in twenty years time and not believe that you couldn't see anything in them!

There is a finite limit of things to hear and assessments to make. I've heard enough of everything in tyhe world of CM and excercises like this current chain have only served to reinforce my existing state of preference. I simply cannot believe it when you say Bachs pieces are more memorable. You are surely arguing for the hell of it?! Whatever it is that you find so memorable in Bach by this converse logic (to my ears) means you must have an equally difficult time remembering Beethoven! Beethoven's (and indeed Mozart's Peter) choruses are far more Handelian than Bachian. I suppose there's not enough counterpoint in the Missa Solemnis for you boys either? Yet it is a piece than makes the B minor Mass look almost like a student's excercise. It was the St John Passion I think I was listening to on TV that I mentioned earlier, a tortuous experience in monotony compared to virually any Handel Oratorio. I fully understand why Handel abandoned this style at a very early age.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 13, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
That is so true. Your tastes do change over time. There's music I listened to 20 yrs. ago that I didn't quite 'get' and now they're some of my favourite pieces.

Joy

I still play the same pop and hard rock music I bought when I was teenager. I can't say I've had a change or heart about anything I have ever bought or heard. I recall my first listening to a full recording of the Messiah (long long ago) and thought is was awful, and it was, and indeed it still IS. It put me off Handel until more authentic instrument ensembles came on the scene. Even then is has taken time for player and (especially) singers associated with the authentic movement to understand how to perform this music. The case is even more so with Beethoven where things have gone if anything retrograde. I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that once I've heard a piece I've never made an assessment of it that I have subsequently judged to be incorrect, even if I've heard it only once. And I'm too old a dog now to be taught new tricks!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 13, 2002).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I still play the same pop and hard rock music I bought when I was teenager. I can't say I've had a change or heart about anything I have ever bought or heard. I recall my first listening to a full recording of the Messiah (long long ago) and thought is was awful, and it was, and indeed it still IS. It put me off Handel until more authentic instrument ensembles came on the scene. Even then is has taken time for player and (especially) singers associated with the authentic movement to understand how to perform this music. The case is even more so with Beethoven where things have gone if anything retrograde. I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that once I've heard a piece I've never made an assessment of it that I have subsequently judged to be incorrect, even if I've heard it only once. And I'm too old a dog now to be taught new tricks!

I have to admit I've abandoned all the rock 'n' roll I used to listen to at a younger age in preference of classical which is all I've listened to for the past several years. Call me narrow minded if you will but I cannot get into the stuff I used to listen to anymore. It's impossible for me to go back now. I did listen to classical music also while growing up and loved listening to Messiah each Christmas and Easter when they would play it on radio and now my listening pleasure has grown with Handle to include many of his works which I think are genuis. My point is my classical music has broadened while my youthful music has dimenished completely.
P.S.: You're never too old!!

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I simply cannot believe it when you say Bachs pieces are more memorable. You are surely arguing for the hell of it?! Whatever it is that you find so memorable in Bach by this converse logic (to my ears) means you must have an equally difficult time remembering Beethoven!
Beethoven's (and indeed Mozart's Peter) choruses are far more Handelian than Bachian. I suppose there's not enough counterpoint in the Missa Solemnis for you boys either? Yet it is a piece than makes the B minor Mass look almost like a student's excercise.

This really is ridiculous! I shall say no more on this subject as we have got nowhere -my position is that I admire Handel and Bach - yours remains one based on prejudice, determined to admit nothing of value in Bach - a remark that the B minor mass 'looks almost like a students exercise in comparison to the Missa' is absurd, and really not worthy of you. I have performed several Beethoven sonatas in public, and fortunately my memory hasn't let me down so far!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This really is ridiculous! I shall say no more on this subject as we have got nowhere -my position is that I admire Handel and Bach - yours remains one based on prejudice, determined to admit nothing of value in Bach - a remark that the B minor mass 'looks almost like a students exercise in comparison to the Missa' is absurd, and really not worthy of you. I have performed several Beethoven sonatas in public, and fortunately my memory hasn't let me down so far!

By default you and Chazss must be equally predjudiced as your own position re Handel and Bach is, whether you admit it or not, the direct opposite of my own. If I had stated a preference for Bach with equal zeal it would have met with no contradiction from yourselves, this I am sure of.

I thought my opinion of the B minor would result in the above condemnation. However I felt compelled to say this considering the established opinion is that they are works of equal merit. Even based on the few pieces presented here from B minor this cannot be true. There is a fair ammount of common place stuff in the B minor as far as I am concerned, whereas the Solemn Mass is perfect in every way, surely the supreme piece of church music, way too good for the church in fact.

PS did you people know Beethoven arranged the Fugue from Solomon's overture as a string quartet? I'll be putting this piece on the new (and final) list for the rare page, together with some other prelude and fugue excercises in the same medium.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 14, 2002).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
By default you and Chazss must be equally predjudiced as your own position re Handel and Bach is, whether you admit it or not, the direct opposite of my own. If I had stated a preference for Bach with equal zeal it would have met with no contradiction from yourselves, this I am sure of.


Did I not say I preferred the Concerto grossi to the Brandenburgs? My position is not the opposite of yours - You see Bach as the inferior to Handel in every way, I see them both as great.

PS did you people know Beethoven arranged the Fugue from Solomon's overture as a string quartet? I'll be putting this piece on the new (and final) list for the rare page, together with some other prelude and fugue excercises in the same medium.

I look forward to it.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Did I not say I preferred the Concerto grossi to the Brandenburgs? My position is not the opposite of yours - You see Bach as the inferior to Handel in every way, I see them both as great.

You did state this preference with regard to the specific music concerned, but this aside I got the impression that your loyalties were more pro-Bach (for example that if Beethoven had heard more Bach, he would perhaps have re-thought his choice of Handel as the greatest composer). With regard to many issues I do indeed regard Bach as inferior, principally because I find his particular style of composition so limited compared to Handel's endless diversity (even allowing for his well known 'borrowings' of which even Bach was 'guilty' of to a certain degree).

Originally posted by Peter:


I look forward to it.

I've still got quite a few pieces I haven't listed but I think we've done enough with this theme and given a wide cross selection of things. We could perhaps do a similar page on a different theme. You know I've never been keen on doing a simple collection of his main works, but with my CD collection we could easily develop this along a specific theme - ie say, 'the master works on period instruments' or something to that effect. If this does not appeal perhaps you can think of something else... perhaps use Chris's collection!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 16, 2002).]