Handel vs Bach cont.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Rod:
I would have though you would have realised by now that if Rod says 'it's good', IT'S GOOD!

Gee, Rod, are you a great musician or what? Or are you just like me, who have a college degree in music and play several instruments and am a member of a community orchestra and a chamber group?

I expect what Rod and Chaszz are dealing with is simply a matter of personal preference, which is something one really can't explain or argue with. "De gustibus non disputandum est."

As for me, as I said before, I love both Bach and Handel, but for different reasons. I have sung both the Messiah and the B minor Mass and love both. I also like much other music, leaning heavily toward the great Romantics and the more intense modern composers. (Gustav Mahler and Edgard Varese are favorites, as is Bela Bartok.) But I'm always looking for the next masterpiece. Several weeks ago I heard a violin concerto by Erich Korngold on the radio, and my reaction was "Why haven't I heard anything by this guy before? He's really good!"

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
What is at Brook St,something Handelian?
Can you say why Handel desired to come to Endland and why he stayed, there were a few uncertian moments after Queen Anne died untill a pension conferred by her was confirmed.But was money the only consideration?
Does it seem odd that a German composer writing in the Italian style should become the darling of English opera goers.I didn't think Italian music was going over very well with the English at the time.What changed their minds,the sheer beauty of the music he wrote?

No.25 Brook Street was Handel's London home for the last 36 years of his life. Initially he came to try his luck at Opera and Rinaldo was something of a success. It was the accession to the British throne of the Hanoverian George I (a bizarre choice since he spoke no English, had no liking for England and fifty or so others had a better claim to the throne!)that persuaded Handel to remain in England.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel.

A few years back there was a programme on Handel that featured some operatic duets - all were wonderful, but one in particular was absolutely ravishing, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was! Any ideas or suggestions for cds of Handel duets and arias?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Here are two of Handel's arias from the 'Handel 9 German Arias' CD on Capriccio label, these are really excellent:

Aria1.mp3

Aria2.mp3

I've listened to each of these three times thru. The performances and the sound are beautiful, but I don't feel the same about the musical content. It simply doesn't really move me. I could offhand name 10 Bach arias which affect me more emotionally, including this one from the Mass in B Minor:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Agnus%20Dei.mp3

It is possible one of the reasons I like it better is the wonderful harmonic progression combined with the melody. Often I simply don't find Handel's chord progressions interesting harmonically. Harmonic creativity married to beautiful melody is also one of the reasons I love Wagner. I must admit that sticking to the old tonic, dominant, subdominant, etc. often makes me find interest lacking in Mozart and Handel. Once in a while I even feel this way with Beethoven, but generally not.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Peter:
A few years back there was a programme on Handel that featured some operatic duets - all were wonderful, but one in particular was absolutely ravishing, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was! Any ideas or suggestions for cds of Handel duets and arias?

From Rinaldo,Scherzano sul tuo volto le grazie vessosette.

[Rod]

Here is some more stuff as promised. Enjoy.

First an earth shaker from 'Solomon' (McCreesh/Gabrielli Concort & Players. Archiv label):

Solomon.mp3


Who says Handel can't write fugues? Check out the fugue in the overture to 'Judas Macabaeus' (Robert King/Kings Consort and Choir of New College Oxford. Hyperion label):

Judas.mp3


Finaly a chorus celebrating the Egyptians being swallowed by the Red Sea from 'Israel in Egypt' (Parrot/Taverner Choir & Players. Virgin Veritas label).

Israel.mp3


I've been away fro a couple of days. Will respond to all recent comments in due course.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 08, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Here is some more stuff as promised. Enjoy.

First an earth shaker from 'Solomon' (McCreesh/Gabrielli Concort & Players. Archiv label):

Solomon.mp3


Who says Handel can't write fugues? Check out the fugue in the overture to 'Judas Macabaeus' (Robert King/Kings Consort and Choir of New College Oxford. Hyperion label):

Judas.mp3


Finaly a chorus celebrating the Egyptians being swallowed by the Red Sea from 'Israel in Egypt' (Parrot/Taverner Choir & Players. Virgin Veritas label).

Israel.mp3


I've been away fro a couple of days. Will respond to all recent comments in due course.

These all sound good. I'd like to listen to them a couple more times before commenting more fully.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

At least we've brought another composer into the equation, though the number of 'good melodies' a composer writes is hardly helpful in this context, otherwise Schubert would be greater than Beethoven.

True, but the context that was being discussed at the time was that of melodies.

Originally posted by Peter:

In your opinion - my opinion is that they are two faces of the same peak. Handel undoubtedly has not been given his full due and I agree entirely with you on this. Great as his popular works such as Messiah are, there is finer music to be found in his output. By the way, I paid my homage to Brook Street the other day!

Well most people say this, but when forced the question I can say from experience that most would lean towards Bach. All I can say is that, upon hearing both, I'd rather have a second hearing of the Handel.

[/B][/QUOTE]



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
A few years back there was a programme on Handel that featured some operatic duets - all were wonderful, but one in particular was absolutely ravishing, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was! Any ideas or suggestions for cds of Handel duets and arias?

Virtually all the operas have numbers like this. But Julius Ceasar has the best known ones. It is the quality of the operas that has surprised me the most with Handel. I wasn't really expecting it for some reason. But the taste for foreign language productions simply disintegrated in England. And some of the ideosyncrasies of the Italian Opera format became something of a joke.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I've listened to each of these three times thru. The performances and the sound are beautiful, but I don't feel the same about the musical content. It simply doesn't really move me. I could offhand name 10 Bach arias which affect me more emotionally, including this one from the Mass in B Minor:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Agnus%20Dei.mp3

It is possible one of the reasons I like it better is the wonderful harmonic progression combined with the melody. Often I simply don't find Handel's chord progressions interesting harmonically. Harmonic creativity married to beautiful melody is also one of the reasons I love Wagner. I must admit that sticking to the old tonic, dominant, subdominant, etc. often makes me find interest lacking in Mozart and Handel. Once in a while I even feel this way with Beethoven, but generally not.

Well I gave this track you kindly provided a listen. I don't really see how you can compare this with the two Handel arias which are jolly secular chamber pieces, but I suggest that these have an immediacy lacking in the Bach. I haven't uploaded anything this serious sounding yet, that's to come. As I have said before however, I am not surprise that a fan of Romantic music also rates Bach so highly. The unending homogenaity of Bach results inevitably in rather one-dimentional output emotionally, lacking convincing drama or invention. I associate these things with Romantisism. My brother is exactly the same - he like Jazz, Bach and the more sentimental Romantic stuff, but has little time for Beethoven or any of the classical era composers, and he struggles with Handel too if he's not being 'heavy'!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 09, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well I gave this track you kindly provided a listen. I don't really see how you can compare this with the two Handel arias which are jolly secular chamber pieces, but I suggest that these have an immediacy lacking in the Bach. I haven't uploaded anything this serious sounding yet, that's to come. As I have said before however, I am not surprise that a fan of Romantic music also rates Bach so highly. The unending homogenaity of Bach results inevitably in rather one-dimentional output emotionally, lacking convincing drama or invention. I associate these things with Romantisism. My brother is exactly the same - he like Jazz, Bach and the more sentimental Romantic stuff, but has little time for Beethoven or any of the classical era composers, and he struggles with Handel too if he's not being 'heavy'!

Well, unlike your brother, I have plenty of time for Beethoven.

Speaking of jazz, one of the great uses of polyphony is in the early New Orleans jazz, although most jazz fans today have little or no regard for it.

I don't find polyphony there or in Bach less immediate or dramatic than Handel. I will be putting up a Bach chorus or two in the near future to illustrate this further.

I still haven't relistened to the Handel choruses but will do it today. I heard Handel's Suite for Keyboard No. 9 last night and liked it very much. I will give him pride of place willingly in this form, as I find Bach's keyboard suites (French and English) boring.

[Rod]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Gee, Rod, are you a great musician or what? Or are you just like me, who have a college degree in music and play several instruments and am a member of a community orchestra and a chamber group?

There is no direct connection between musical taste and/or judgement, and academic learing!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Here is some more stuff as promised. Enjoy.

First an earth shaker from 'Solomon' (McCreesh/Gabrielli Concort & Players. Archiv label):

Solomon.mp3


Who says Handel can't write fugues? Check out the fugue in the overture to 'Judas Macabaeus' (Robert King/Kings Consort and Choir of New College Oxford. Hyperion label):

Judas.mp3


Finaly a chorus celebrating the Egyptians being swallowed by the Red Sea from 'Israel in Egypt' (Parrot/Taverner Choir & Players. Virgin Veritas label).

Israel.mp3


I've been away fro a couple of days. Will respond to all recent comments in due course.

I've listened to these again.

!. Reminiscent to me of the Hallelujah chorus from Messiah. I also feel the need of more polyphony to increase my enjoyment.

2. Great

3. Reminiscent again of the Hallelujah chorus. Some melodic/dramatic ideas from there get into each of these choruses, or vice versa. Sounds to me like Handel may have not had the wealth of invention that Bach had.

In no case among any of the works by Handel presented on the web site, have I had the urge to listen again after the requisite listening for a comment was done. However, I will buy one of these Oratorios and work at it.

Coming up in a day or two, the incredible Cum Spiritu Sanctu from the Mass in B Minor. On its way, the final movement of the Musical Offering.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I've listened to these again.

!. Reminiscent to me of the Hallelujah chorus from Messiah. I also feel the need of more polyphony to increase my enjoyment.

2. Great

3. Reminiscent again of the Hallelujah chorus. Some melodic/dramatic ideas from there get into each of these choruses, or vice versa. Sounds to me like Handel may have not had the wealth of invention that Bach had.

In no case among any of the works by Handel presented on the web site, have I had the urge to listen again after the requisite listening for a comment was done. However, I will buy one of these Oratorios and work at it.

Coming up in a day or two, the incredible Cum Spiritu Sanctu from the Mass in B Minor. On its way, the final movement of the Musical Offering.

I don't really see a connection with the Halleluja chorus in the Solomon piece, but I do in the Israel in Egypt piece which I think was written before Messiah. Handels dynamics are long term in that the effects are spread across many numbers - this you will not appreciate hearing only individual items from each. Bearing in mind your comments I have never felt a strong level of musical invention in Bach's music on a thematic level, it all seems to be in the 'mechanics' of the material - Handel's chorus's are always very memorable compared to Bach's. But then I cannot understand your enthusiasm for Wagner either!

I'd be interested to know the popular opinion so far. Clearly we have two different worlds here.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 10, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
But then I cannot understand your enthusiasm for Wagner either!

In reply to this, I can't resist calling attention to the Wagner music mp3 I've posted under the topic of 'An intrusion' which has only drawn one response so far.
I found myself listening to this piece three times yesterday, even though already thoroughly familiar with it.