Handel vs Bach cont.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, has not one of you got the web space to present this last movment? I'd like to hear it. I was listening to a few disks last night to chose some tracks to turn into mp3s but it was extremely difficult to chose. I decided on some church music which Handel wrote relatively little of, but perhaps would be more relevance considering the nature of Bach's output. I have his complete Carmelite Vespas which make up about 35 'movements' and I couldn't choose any 'stand out' tracks, such is the consistancy of quality, at the age of just circa 22. But I'll present a representative selection from these Vespas next week, about 3 pieces, not too long. The solo singing is perfect for this type of music, which connects with the issue of sopranos we discussed earlier. Then maybe some instrumental stuff and then a few chorus's and arias from the big works.

Unfortunately my web space is not enough - I have an excellent recording with none other than Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations who writes "In fact the mass in B minor, the Musical offering and the Art of fugue together form a perfect syntheseis of Bach's skill and genius in the art of musical composition, particularly in counterpoint as well as his phenomenal capacity for invention and extraordinary sense of structure, form and number. These masterpieces overcome the most rigorous challenges, whilst never sacrificing the expressive quality and musical eloquence which even in his most elaborate and complex passages, provide the unbroken thread of Bach's musical discourse.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I have never heard a more sublime fugue than the final movment of Bach's Musical Offering, with its beautiful, unearthly harmonic progressions. This is an example of one of those works by older artists which rise to new and unprecedented heights.

I must admit that I've tried but cannot react to Bach's Art of Fugue. This is one of those works which I think that either it is praised unjustly or something is lacking in myself. But I think the Musical Offering is sublime, no other word will do, and the final movement most of all.

It may be that the final movement is less than emotionally stimulating, but my primary interest in fugues and contrapuntal writing is more intellectual than emotional. Thus, when I listen to the fugues in Beethoven's later works I am especially interested because I have both intellectual stimulus as well as emotional. I find Bach to be more intellectual than emotional, in fact I think he could have been a great mathmatician had he chosen that vocation.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, Beethoven made himelf King of a medium he initially had little interest in. He found the traditional manner of fugue limiting and worthy primarily as excercises - which is interresting considering his exposure to Bach's fugues. His acceptance of the fugue in later life seems only to occur when he allowed himself basically to do what he liked with the form, as opposed to a 'strict' fugue - which is more in line with Handel's approach.

Seems to me that Beethoven did what he liked with all the forms. His complete understanding of music form exceeds my small comprehension.

[Rod]

Ok here's your first installment, they'll be on line for two days before I replace them, so you'll have to be quick. This is early stuff from the Vespers I talked about when H was 22. I've got a few more similar vocal pieces to come next, but be QUICK about downloading. You lucky people you...

This is from Dixit Dominus: Dixit1.mp3

From Saeviat tellus: Saeviat1.mp3

Saeviat2.mp3

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 24, 2002).]

[John Rasmussen]

I just tuned in and haven't had a chance to read all responses thoroughly. But here are my thoughts:

I love Bach and Handel equally, but for different reasons. Handel's music is passionate and showy (in the best sense), while Bach's is deep and thoughtful. One thing I've noticed, however, is that Bach's music is thoroughly written out with no room for improvisation, while Handel follows the earlier tradition of sketchy writing that leaves room for performers' additions. Therefore someone who performs Handel must be both creative and re-creative, while Bach responds well to a more literal reading.

Few performers really let themselves go when performing Handel, whether for reverence or fear of being inauthentic. Even the otherwise magnificent Academy of Ancient Music recordings are at fault here. That's why so many Handel recordings are unsatisfactory. (Many Bach recordings are unsatisfactory too, but his music is so well-constructed it can usually survive any treatment if the notes are there.)

Perhaps our cry should be, "more passionate, creative performances!"

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ok here's your first installment, they'll be on line for two days before I replace them, so you'll have to be quick. This is early stuff from the Vespers I talked about when H was 22. I've got a few more similar vocal pieces to come next, but be QUICK about downloading. You lucky people you...

This is from Dixit Dominus: Dixit1.mp3

From Saeviat tellus: Saeviat1.mp3

Saeviat2.mp3

These are very fine.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
These are very fine.

I'm releaved you think so, these are as near perfect performances as you could reasonably expect. Dixit Dominus in particular is a masterpiece, I've got another section to download from it but I ran out of space, you'll hear it soon. The tracks are from a 2 disk recording on Virgin Veritas label 'Handel Carmelite Vespers' with the Taverner Choir and Orchestra.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 25, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
It may be that the final movement is less than emotionally stimulating, but my primary interest in fugues and contrapuntal writing is more intellectual than emotional. Thus, when I listen to the fugues in Beethoven's later works I am especially interested because I have both intellectual stimulus as well as emotional. I find Bach to be more intellectual than emotional, in fact I think he could have been a great mathmatician had he chosen that vocation.

This is by and large my own impression of Bach. I am continually surprised when I read the term 'sprtitual' connected with Bach and that this spirituality is not found in Handel, whereas from hearing I would say if anything ther reverse is the case. The extreme 'intellectuallity' in Bach often makes the music sound somewhat dry and emotionally detached to my ears. Yet I have friends who are mezmerised by it, but think or know little of Handel. Strange indeed.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
I just tuned in and haven't had a chance to read all responses thoroughly. But here are my thoughts:

I love Bach and Handel equally, but for different reasons. Handel's music is passionate and showy (in the best sense), while Bach's is deep and thoughtful. One thing I've noticed, however, is that Bach's music is thoroughly written out with no room for improvisation, while Handel follows the earlier tradition of sketchy writing that leaves room for performers' additions. Therefore someone who performs Handel must be both creative and re-creative, while Bach responds well to a more literal reading.

Few performers really let themselves go when performing Handel, whether for reverence or fear of being inauthentic. Even the otherwise magnificent Academy of Ancient Music recordings are at fault here. That's why so many Handel recordings are unsatisfactory. (Many Bach recordings are unsatisfactory too, but his music is so well-constructed it can usually survive any treatment if the notes are there.)

Perhaps our cry should be, "more passionate, creative performances!"

I agree Handel leaves room for the soloists invention in the sonatas, but in any stage music the singers would naturally add their own embellishments. But in practise I would recommend only the minimum 'additions' be used as their overuse can too easily destroy the overall effect. The better the singer the less additions they need.

I'd like to know which recordings by the AAM you are referring too. I agree all Handel's music is by nature dramatic, but we surely don't need the hysterics we see in Romantic opera?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 25, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is by and large my own impression of Bach. I am continually surprised when I read the term 'sprtitual' connected with Bach and that this spirituality is not found in Handel, whereas from hearing I would say if anything ther reverse is the case. The extreme 'intellectuallity' in Bach often makes the music sound somewhat dry and emotionally detached to my ears. Yet I have friends who are mezmerised by it, but think or know little of Handel. Strange indeed.

It isn't strange - What is strange is your not appreciating the spirituality and emotional depth of a work like the St.Matthew passion. Wonderful arias such as the contralto 'Have mercy, Lord on me' with Violin obligato, 'see ye the saviour's outstretched hands' or the soprano 'For love my saviour now is dying' or the bass 'at evening, hour of calm and peace'. The chorales are incredibly moving such as 'be near me lord when dying' sung pianissimo. These are just a few examples of a powerful score rich in emotion and spirituality.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It isn't strange - What is strange is your not appreciating the spirituality and emotional depth of a work like the St.Matthew passion. Wonderful arias such as the contralto 'Have mercy, Lord on me' with Violin obligato, 'see ye the saviour's outstretched hands' or the soprano 'For love my saviour now is dying' or the bass 'at evening, hour of calm and peace'. The chorales are incredibly moving such as 'be near me lord when dying' sung pianissimo. These are just a few examples of a powerful score rich in emotion and spirituality.

Fair enough if that's what you believe, but we can continue saying what we like and don't like but the conversation will quickly become tiresome, especially for those who have not heard the music in question, which is why I provided some music for comparative assessment. I look forward to reading your impressions of these MP3s.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough if that's what you believe, but we can continue saying what we like and don't like but the conversation will quickly become tiresome, especially for those who have not heard the music in question, which is why I provided some music for comparative assessment. I look forward to reading your impressions of these MP3s.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

(I hit enter just above without having written anything).

Rod, I like the Handel works you uploaded.

I heard a performance of Handel's Opus 6 Concerto Grosso No. 11 last night by the Orpehus Chamber Orchestra. Do they qualify as good interpreters? It seemed a lively and skilled performance. I must admit it didn't move me. It seemed harmonically uninspired, relying on melodies based on a relatively few predictable chords and modulations. The last movement seemed overly long and didn't seem to develop. I would prefer most any of Bach's concertos, grosso or solo, to this, except for two or three.

But as I said before, I've been hearing these Opus 6 concerti all my life without much reaction. Perhaps it is me and not the music as I know they are honored greatly by others.

I have some movements from the Mass in B Minor to upload. My new computer is not hooked up to the net yet but I'll try with my old computer. I think I know how to "rip" the music from CD to MP3 on my hard disk. Then what do I do with the MP3? Do I need to ask my internet service provider for space and help? Or is there another way to do it? Thanks.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough if that's what you believe, but we can continue saying what we like and don't like but the conversation will quickly become tiresome, especially for those who have not heard the music in question, which is why I provided some music for comparative assessment. I look forward to reading your impressions of these MP3s.

I think you'll have to search this forum far and wide to find any real criticism of Handel from me. You are attacking Bach (as usual), whereas I have nothing but praise for Handel - that is the difference. I have Dixit Dominus already and it is fine - the excerpt from 'Saeviat tellus' is quite beautiful. Do you know the Bach pieces from the St.Matthew passion I mentioned, or how about the wonderful Magnificat or Christmas Oratorio, or the aria 'agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi' from the B minor mass? Unfortunately I hardly have enough web space left to provide any mp3s. I agree that some of Bach's music such as the Art of Fugue and some of the 48 are academic and intellectual exercises, they were intended to be so.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you'll have to search this forum far and wide to find any real criticism of Handel from me. You are attacking Bach (as usual), whereas I have nothing but praise for Handel - that is the difference. I have Dixit Dominus already and it is fine - the excerpt from 'Saeviat tellus' is quite beautiful. Do you know the Bach pieces from the St.Matthew passion I mentioned, or how about the wonderful Magnificat or Christmas Oratorio, or the aria 'agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi' from the B minor mass? Unfortunately I hardly have enough web space left to provide any mp3s. I agree that some of Bach's music such as the Art of Fugue and some of the 48 are academic and intellectual exercises, they were intended to be so.

I have accepted your position concerning Bach but I was becoming aware that we were running in circles - hence my introduction of some mp3s for discussion. I have only 1 Bach work in my collection that is nice but not as nice as these works I present here. If anyone can upload something I would be more than interested to listen to it.

I hope you download the beautifull Dixit Dominus track, and the other one I will present shortly because this is by far the best available. It makes Gardiners efforts with the piece look utterly lame and dull.

I have heard so much Bach music but where it comes from I usually forget for it usually fails to hold my interest. Did you see the Passion they had on TV at earlier this year? It met with critical acclaim but in all seriousness i found the whole thing utterly depressing.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin