Handel vs Bach cont.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
It came up with a properly underlined URL. All that extra copying not necessary.

Later, after more trial and error: here is an easy way to play and listen to the excerpts from the B Minor Mass:

1. Copy this URL by highlighting it with your mouse, then click the right mouse button and click on Copy:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Gloria4.mp3

2. Open Quicktime Player or Real Player on your system. Open the File menu. In Quicktime, click on Open URL. In Real, click on Open.

3. Using the mouse, put the cursor on the address space, click the right button, and click Paste. The URL will be placed in the space. Press the PLAY arrow.

[Rod]

Handel vs Bach cont.

Originally posted by Chaszz:
The reason is Bach chose not to move on, as a composer today might who rejected the styles of the 20th C. and looked to the 18th and 19th C.'s as his/her anchor, which some do. Bach was quite aware of the simplification of melodic line going on around him, and rejected it. When he was taking one of his sons to hear an opera, he said, "Come, Friedmann, let us go hear the pretty tunes."

While this is certainly too broad an indictment of opera (perhaps similar in its way to Rod's blanket attitudes), it does give an indication of Bach's priorities.
And NO, this doesn't mean there is not plenty of powerful emotion in his music.

I've continued this topic as a seperate item from the 'Quote of the day' chain as one was needed for it. Your story about Bach and the opera is interesting. But your assessment states you think this was a kind of put down of opera - if so why was he going to the opera in the first place? regardless It does imply that composing 'pretty tunes' (ie conventional secular music) was not in his job description and he stuck to that.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 19, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've continued this topic as a seperate item from the 'Quote of the day' chain as one was needed for it. Your story about Bach and the opera is interesting. But your assessment implies you think this was a kind of put down - if so why was he going to the opera in the first place? regardless It does imply that composing 'pretty tunes' (ie conventional secular music) was not in his job description and he stuck to that.

This discussion certainly enlivens my work day, which helpfully is a bit light on required work right now.

I don't know why Bach went to the opera, but I would assume he wanted to hear what was being done, and to educate his children.
By the time he came to be cantor at Leipzig, his job description did not include secular music, but he was in spare time a contributing member of a Collegium Musicum which held weekly secular concerts in coffeehouses. Before that, when he was music director at Cothen, he wrote much secular music, including one of the prettiest of pretty tunes, the so-called Air for the G String from one of his four Orchestral Suites, which are full of beautiful melodies.

I expect he dismissed opera because he felt that all those large vocal and instrumental resources would have been better put to religious use, when his own canata masterpieces were being amateurishly sung by eighth graders. However, as an agnostic/atheist, I myself have no problem in appreciating the emotion in his religious music without feeling religious about it.
Nor the emotion in his secular concerti and suites.

Actually I have listened to Handel's concerti grosso off and on for years and not been moved by them. I heard one on the radio the other night and tried hard, but could not get much from it. The difference is, I take the testimony of others seriously and realize it is my lack, not Handel's. But I prefer any Bach orchestral suite or concerto, including the Brandenburgs, to Handel's concerti grosso; and I don't consider the Brandenburgs anywhere near the greatest of Bach's output.

(I do love other things by Handel, and will be in the future be trying his oratorios which you have championed).

But as I say, and THIS is the crux of my argument to which you have not yet responded: I see the lack in myself, not Handel, whereas you see the lack in Bach, not yourself. I cannot reject the testimony of legions of experts and listeners who praise Handel's concerti; you can those legions who praise Bach. And Mozart. And Schubert. And Wagner. And probably Brahms, Bruckner, and many others.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Actually I have listened to Handel's concerti grosso off and on for years and not been moved by them. I heard one on the radio the other night and tried hard, but could not get much from it. The difference is, I take the testimony of others seriously and realize it is my lack, not Handel's. But I prefer any Bach orchestral suite or concerto, including the Brandenburgs, to Handel's concerti grosso; and I don't consider the Brandenburgs anywhere near the greatest of Bach's output.

I can't believe you can say the above, you must have heard the Handel played by some wretched modern instrument chamber orchestra. Get your mp3s out and I have no doubt I'd demolish you on this point.

Originally posted by Chaszz:


But as I say, and THIS is the crux of my argument to which you have not yet responded: I see the lack in myself, not Handel, whereas you see the lack in Bach, not yourself.

I see the lack in Bach compared to Beethoven and Handel. You can't taste the sugar in your tea when you've had a mouthfull of honey!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You could say the same for Mozart and even Beethoven, as Rod I know will agree that Beethoven was a Classical composer not a Romantic! Weber 'moved on', but he wasn't as great as Beethoven

Handel was in some respects a conservative, like Beethoven he was happy to expand and make the most of existing, forms rather than follow the latest Vivaldian trend (or Weberian!), as can be seen with his op6 concerti. Handel made good use of the best of what he heard around Europe and thus his music is enfused with Italian, French, English and German influences, but the musical structures themselves are conservative for the time.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I see the lack in Bach compared to Beethoven and Handel. You can't taste the sugar in your tea when you've had a mouthfull of honey!

There is plenty of honey in Bach, as I will demonstrate when I learn to upload MP3s. (This will not be too soon, as I have other things to learn on this new computer which take priority. Also I so gorged myself on Bach in my younger years that I have mostly LPs and not CDs of his works, having been busy with other musicians of late. I would not know where to begin finding the best Bach interpretations, being more concerned with the best interpretations of Wagner lately. But if the Mass I ordered is decent, I will upload some movements).

However, as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Can you admit, even in theory, that there are beauties in any art form to which a particular person may be insensitive?

Of course you are curiously hampered in that you revere only 2 composers. Appreciating a bunch of composers, I can live with an indifference to Schumann and say to myself, well, I just don't get it. Its very hard for you because you get so little.

As a painter, I love many painters but not Rubens. However, a painter I revere, Cezanne, loved Rubens, and so did and do many other art lovers. So I would never deny that Rubens is most probably great. Just that I lack the ability to appreciate him. I would never suggest having a duel between Rubens and Titian on a website in an attempt to prove Rubens worthless.

So again, can you admit, even if only as a possibility, that perception and not quality may be what is involved here?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

So again, can you admit, even if only as a possibility, that perception and not quality may be what is involved here?

Sir, this question is a slurr on my very good name!!!

I have a saying - 'the proof is in the hearing'. Sort out your computer set up.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Sir, this question is a slurr on my very good name!!!

I have a saying - 'the proof is in the hearing'. Sort out your computer set up.

We have an answer to my question at last. I thought you might take it as a personal affront, although I did not mean it that way.

As I said, I have other important computer priorities for awhile. In the meantime I would welcome hearing Handel choruses from the oratorios, or op. 6, if you care to oblige.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
We have an answer to my question at last. I thought you might take it as a personal affront, although I did not mean it that way.

As I said, I have other important computer priorities for awhile. In the meantime I would welcome hearing Handel choruses from the oratorios, or op. 6, if you care to oblige.

Well, I was just kidding about the affront, slightly...

I'll stick I few things on-line in due course.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
This discussion certainly enlivens my work day, which helpfully is a bit light on required work right now.


Actually I have listened to Handel's concerti grosso off and on for years and not been moved by them. I heard one on the radio the other night and tried hard, but could not get much from it. The difference is, I take the testimony of others seriously and realize it is my lack, not Handel's. But I prefer any Bach orchestral suite or concerto, including the Brandenburgs, to Handel's concerti grosso; and I don't consider the Brandenburgs anywhere near the greatest of Bach's output.

But as I say, and THIS is the crux of my argument to which you have not yet responded: I see the lack in myself, not Handel, whereas you see the lack in Bach, not yourself. I cannot reject the testimony of legions of experts and listeners who praise Handel's concerti; you can those legions who praise Bach. And Mozart. And Schubert. And Wagner. And probably Brahms, Bruckner, and many others.

I myself prefer the Handel Concerti Grosso for the same reasons that Rod does. I get little emotional impact from Bach's orchestral output. But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

Well, Beethoven made himelf King of a medium he initially had little interest in. He found the traditional manner of fugue limiting and worthy primarily as excercises - which is interresting considering his exposure to Bach's fugues. His acceptance of the fugue in later life seems only to occur when he allowed himself basically to do what he liked with the form, as opposed to a 'strict' fugue - which is more in line with Handel's approach.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I myself prefer the Handel Concerti Grosso for the same reasons that Rod does. I get little emotional impact from Bach's orchestral output. But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I myself prefer the Handel Concerti Grosso for the same reasons that Rod does. I get little emotional impact from Bach's orchestral output. But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

I have never heard a more sublime fugue than the final movment of Bach's Musical Offering, with its beautiful, unearthly harmonic progressions. This is an example of one of those works by older artists which rise to new and unprecedented heights.

I must admit that I've tried but cannot react to Bach's Art of Fugue. This is one of those works which I think that either it is praised unjustly or something is lacking in myself. But I think the Musical Offering is sublime, no other word will do, and the final movement most of all.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I have never heard a more sublime fugue than the final movment of Bach's Musical Offering, with its beautiful, unearthly harmonic progressions. This is an example of one of those works by older artists which rise to new and unprecedented heights.

I must admit that I've tried but cannot react to Bach's Art of Fugue. This is one of those works which I think that either it is praised unjustly or something is lacking in myself. But I think the Musical Offering is sublime, no other word will do, and the final movement most of all.

I agree with every word of this!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree with every word of this!

Well, has not one of you got the web space to present this last movment? I'd like to hear it. I was listening to a few disks last night to chose some tracks to turn into mp3s but it was extremely difficult to chose. I decided on some church music which Handel wrote relatively little of, but perhaps would be more relevance considering the nature of Bach's output. I have his complete Carmelite Vespas which make up about 35 'movements' and I couldn't choose any 'stand out' tracks, such is the consistancy of quality, at the age of just circa 22. But I'll present a representative selection from these Vespas next week, about 3 pieces, not too long. The solo singing is perfect for this type of music, which connects with the issue of sopranos we discussed earlier. Then maybe some instrumental stuff and then a few chorus's and arias from the big works.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin