Handel vs Bach cont.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I didn't realize that Beethoven valued the '48' so much as to labor over dynamic markings. We should remember that (as far as I know) Beethoven knew none of Bach's mighty church music except for perhaps a few simple motets and chorales. The bulk of Bach's surviving music was in a trunk in some attic. To repeat the remark with which I began this dispute some months ago, I think that if Beethoven had known the B Minor Mass, the Passions and Canatas, that he would have been stunned, his music would have been more polyphonic, and Handel would have shared the throne with Bach in Beethoven's estimation.

I think Beethoven did know at least some of the B minor mass. As to the '48' he was introduced to them as a child by Neefe and was fully aware of their value - as the greatest piano virtuoso of his day I think it is inconceivable that he would have performed anything in an unmusical manner.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited December 16, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I think that if Beethoven had known the B Minor Mass, the Passions and Canatas, that he would have been stunned, his music would have been more polyphonic, and Handel would have shared the throne with Bach in Beethoven's estimation.

None of Bachs Passions outshines Messiah, and Handel wrote a few pieces in my opinion better than this.

Call me My Crazy, but I prefer B's Solemn Mass to the B Minor.

What do you think of Beethoven's late fugues in relation to Bach's?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 20, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
What do you think of Beethoven's late fugues in relation to Bach's?

In all honesty I must admit I've enjoyed Beethoven's late quartets, I believe Opus 127 and 131, but was not moved by them onto the Olympian plane that everyone refers to when speaking of them. I have not heard the one with the Grosse Fugue for many years and did not react to it much when I did hear it. I am under no belief that this is anything but shortcoming on my part; I have no doubt they are works of supreme genius from everything I've heard and read about them.

I also have not reacted much to the late piano sonatas (again no doubt my own shortcoming) so in general I have moved his late works onto my back burner and not done much listening there, planning to at some time in the future. So I don't even know much about them in general.

What other late fugues are you referring to?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

What other late fugues are you referring to?

Well other than the quartets and last sonatas there is the fugue finale of the cello sonata op107/2. There is also a rarely heard, but excellent, fugue for string quintet. Then one could also consider the fugual treatment in sections of the Solemn Mass and the 9th Symphony amd the Diabelli Variations.

Your rather luke-warm reaction to B's polyphonic treatment is as I would have expected, it being light years away from the world of Bach even when he uses archaic sounding themes. Nevertheless I am surprised that you put these late pieces on the 'back burner' for in many respects they are on occasion more backward looking (ie to the baroque era) than his earlier works.

However there's no point in saying 'well Beethoven would have composed differently if he had heard more Bach'. I would just simply say I just don't like this stuff from Beethoven and prefer Bach. One must just the compositions as they stand (or fall).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 20, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:

However there's no point in saying 'well Beethoven would have composed differently if he had heard more Bach'. I would just simply say I just don't like this stuff from Beethoven and prefer Bach. One must just the compositions as they stand (or fall).

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Beethoven would have composed BETTER if he had heard more Bach. I simply think he would have used more polyphony in his major works in general, and thru him the rest of the 19th C. composers, without implying a value judgment. I can hardly see how he could have composed better than he did.

(I find it interesting that both Beethoven and Mozart were experimenting with polyphony just before they died, Mozart in the great final movement of Jupiter symphony.)

The polyphony in the 9th Symphony has always been wonderful to my ears, along with every last note of that work.

As for my not liking B.'s late works in general especially, I certainly don't intend to leave that there. I'm not about to miss such divine bliss (from what I read and hear) because I can't respond to it initially, or its not to my immediate taste. Thanks for the list of works.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:


What do you think of Beethoven's late fugues in relation to Bach's?

Some of my favorite fugues occur in the Gloria and Credo of the Missa Solemnis.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Some of my favorite fugues occur in the Gloria and Credo of the Missa Solemnis.

In my list above I missed out the most obvious piece - The overture 'Consecration of the House' wherebe B gives a vigourous and lengthy fugual treatment to a theme of Handel's.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
In my list above I missed out the most obvious piece - The overture 'Consecration of the House' wherebe B gives a vigourous and lengthy fugual treatment to a theme of Handel's.

And that is one overture (plus the chorus) that I don't listen to enough!

[Chaszz]

A reminder that www.wkcr.org is playing Bach round the clock this week. I am listening now to a Cantata I never heard before and am melting from the beauty... A happy holiday to all...Chaszz

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
And that is one overture (plus the chorus) that I don't listen to enough!

Hey, this chain is going again, 189.

Get the Hanover Band set with the overtures disk - the overture is fantastic in this recording, much better than anything else I have heard. I have a recording of the rarely heard chorus/dance but the singing from the soloist is so awful I refrained from including it in the 'rare page' list.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Hey, this chain is going again, 189.

Get the Hanover Band set with the overtures disk - the overture is fantastic in this recording, much better than anything else I have heard. I have a recording of the rarely heard chorus/dance but the singing from the soloist is so awful I refrained from including it in the 'rare page' list.

I've got it already. And just got in the Norrington. As a rule I listen to the Eroica of each new set to get a feel for how I might like the particular conductor. With Norrington I was not too impressed--but only listened to the exposition of the first movement. When I have more time I will give it another listen. (What I heard of the 8th on the radio I thought absolutely fantastic.)

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:


but the singing from the soloist is so awful I refrained from including it in the 'rare page' list.

That's as may be but if you think the soloist is awful I would probably LOVE it.Did I suggest to you to listen to C Bartoli sing Vivaldi,I must have been temporarily insane,or suffering from chocolate madness.
With a clearer head I beg you ,please please
offer more "Rare Pages"more Handel,more Beethoven!

[Chaszz]

As promised a few days ago, here is the joyful Bouree from Bach's 3rd Suite for Orchestra in D. (This is the Suite which also contains the famous Air, later adapted for violin G string, which I posted awhile ago).

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Orch_Suite_3_Bouree.mp3

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
As promised a few days ago, here is the joyful Bouree from Bach's 3rd Suite for Orchestra in D. (This is the Suite which also contains the famous Air, later adapted for violin G string, which I posted awhile ago).

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Orch_Suite_3_Bouree.mp3

Very nice, Chaszz. Really enjoyed it a lot. 'Joyful' is right! Thanks!

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Bach did not specify Harpsichord for the 48 - they are written for Clavier, which is a deliberately chosen general term meaning for keyboard. I really don't think the nature of the harpsichord is an issue when playing the 48 - much of Bach's music was arranged by himself for different combinations. It certainly wasn't an issue for Beethoven, nor according to Czerny's edition was the way he played them influenced by the harpsichord manner of playing, as the markings look straight out of a Beethoven sonata complete with the odd sforzando thrown in!

Then if Bach was not too concerned with the instrumentation then he was not too concerned with the interpretation. Not surprising considering their primary purpose as technical excercises - at least this is what they sound like to me. That being said I'd rather hear them on an old 'keyboard' than a new one!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin