"Raptus"

[ann hathaway]

It would appear that during a "Raptus" Beethoven was temporarily out of touch with his environment or, "off the planet".

Frimmel translated it as a Fahzorn--a sudden terrifying fit of fury.
While at such times, Beethoven may well have been under the spell of his creative powers.

Is it possible that his "Raptus" was manic or hypomanic phenomenon ?

Beethoven's music is extraordinary for the unusual content of rhythmic and harmonic "violence". ( I don't really like using the word violence) and ferocious discords and especially for the frequent turbulent offbeat Sforzandos.

In the late style this epitomized the astounding violence of frenzied desperation in the Grosse Fuge and the Fuges in the Sonatas Opus 106 and Opus 110.

In such dynamic oscillations of affect it seems possible that his "violent mood swings" were acted out in his music.

Can it be true, that in 1826 at Langenlois, the clerk, Herr Fux mistook Ludwig for an imbecile ?
While on another occasion during a stay at Gneixendorf, his violent screaming frightned a heard of cattle causing a stampede ?

[Joy]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:

It would appear that during a "Raptus" Beethoven was temporarily out of touch with his environment or, "off the planet".
Beethoven's music is extraordinary for the unusual content of rhythmic and harmonic "violence". ( I don't really like using the word violence) and ferocious discords and especially for the frequent turbulent offbeat Sforzandos.

I have heard this used in describing some of Beethoven's works as well. On the radio I once heard a pianist talking about The Appassionata he was about to play and described it as 'violent' in certain areas and then in other areas of the music 'quiet almost subdued'. Then he cranks it up again when you least expect it. I don't care to use this term either for music but I guess people do.

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While on another occasion during a stay at Gneixendorf, his violent screaming frightned a heard of cattle causing a stampede

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I've heard this story as well. Don't know if it's true or not. Could Beethoven have been manic depressive? Have also read that about him because of his severe mood swings up and down.

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I've heard this story as well. Don't know if it's true or not. Could Beethoven have been manic depressive? Have also read that about him because of his severe mood swings up and down.

Joy

I don't think he was manic-depressive, just eccentric, made more apparent by his deafness. We have to remember that even today deaf people can be treated as though rather subnormal, just imagine how much understanding was around in those days.

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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

I do agree with you Peter and Joy,

I too think dear Ludwig was wonderfully eccentric, solitary, self willed and rather anti-social, perhaps a bit shy, for all his enjoyment of food and drink he was an intensly spiritual and moral person. I can only feel love and admiration for him. as I mentioned before.
We don't believe everything we read, I just want to explore his personality.

[lysander]

I fogot to add about deaf people bieng ignored, this is so true, people tend to shun a deaf person because they do not know how to communicate with them. I have been learning British Sign Language for over a year now and enyoy every bit of it.
It is a fascinating way to communicate with deaf and hard of hearing, they are not sub-normal, many have very good jobs.

I hope to communicate with them when I become a fully fledged interpreter.

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:
I fogot to add about deaf people bieng ignored, this is so true, people tend to shun a deaf person because they do not know how to communicate with them. I have been learning British Sign Language for over a year now and enyoy every bit of it.
It is a fascinating way to communicate with deaf and hard of hearing, they are not sub-normal, many have very good jobs.

I hope to communicate with them when I become a fully fledged interpreter.

Of course sign-language was not available in Beethoven's day so he had to resort to conversation books (thankfully from the historian's point of view). It is easy to see how strange Beethoven would have appeared in his later years particularly to some of the poorer ill-educated people living in the surrounding villages such as Heiligenstadt where the author of 'Beethoven and his nephew' Richard Sterba recalls meeting an old lady whose grandmother had known Beethoven and had left her with an impression of 'that terrible man' !!!!



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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

They relied heavily on conversation books to communicate and also on 'lip reading' I think.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think he was manic-depressive, just eccentric, made more apparent by his deafness. We have to remember that even today deaf people can be treated as though rather subnormal, just imagine how much understanding was around in those days.

That's probably true. He was very eccentric that's for sure and I'm sure his deafness contributed to his behaviour. I agree the misunderstanding of that time regarding handicaps of any kind were probably less than tolerable which is really very sad. I'm glad there's a little better understanding today.

Joy