Listening Habits

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
The length of the Eroica concerns the length of the piece in its entireity, whereas here we are discussing 'super-broad' in connection with an adagio movment. I've never heard any of B's relatively few largos/larghettos played as broadly as some renditions of this adagio. If you prefer it nearer to 20 minutes that's fair enough, but you know I prefer it under 13 and I think the metronome mark must be more in line with this thinking. One of the variations is quite virtuosic and works very nicely at a very quick tempo (Hogwood), this alone can save you a lot of time overall! I think the melodies come over stronger at a quicker tempo though of course the phrasing has to be right, played on gut strings without too much vibrato a most engaging transparent effect can be produced.

Rod,
Yes, I see your point about that. I shall get a copy of the Hogwood to fatten my already substantial collection of 9th's, who knows, it may someday be my favorite too. Now for Eroica. The tremendous breakthrough that B made with this symphony, what made it truly unique in its time and ever after, was the way that he applied sonata form to the piece as a whole instead of to each movement individually. Themes that are introduced in one movement reoccur in another movement, or unexpectedly much later in the same movement. This device, a totally new invention of B's, serves to tie disparate parts of the symphony together as a whole. He also introduces little musical ideas that he then leaves alone for a while, then comes back to later on and 'composes out', as it were. It is so well done that even a novice gets the sense of cohesion in the piece as a whole, which is the wonder of it. So to get back on point, the length of the piece IS relevant, since it stands as a whole, and it must all be there, super long though it is. This is what I meant by there being no precedent for a long adagio not being a problem for B, since there was no precedent for a long symphony until he established one. God, I'm long winded sometimes, but fortunately I like to type, and I have to make my point here. That's my opinion, I may be wrong, but once again, I don't think so.;-)
Regards, Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Yes, I see your point about that. I shall get a copy of the Hogwood to fatten my already substantial collection of 9th's, who knows, it may someday be my favorite too. Now for Eroica. The tremendous breakthrough that B made with this symphony, what made it truly unique in its time and ever after, was the way that he applied sonata form to the piece as a whole instead of to each movement individually. Themes that are introduced in one movement reoccur in another movement, or unexpectedly much later in the same movement. This device, a totally new invention of B's, serves to tie disparate parts of the symphony together as a whole. He also introduces little musical ideas that he then leaves alone for a while, then comes back to later on and 'composes out', as it were. It is so well done that even a novice gets the sense of cohesion in the piece as a whole, which is the wonder of it. So to get back on point, the length of the piece IS relevant, since it stands as a whole, and it must all be there, super long though it is. This is what I meant by there being no precedent for a long adagio not being a problem for B, since there was no precedent for a long symphony until he established one. God, I'm long winded sometimes, but fortunately I like to type, and I have to make my point here. That's my opinion, I may be wrong, but once again, I don't think so.;-)
Regards, Gurn

Perhaps Leonard Bernstien's opinion sums this up. That is, when Beethoven takes an unusual turn in his music--chordal progression, single note, or whatever--that it is the ONLY thing that could have happened. It has a feeling of rightness about it and no other passage would have sufficed. If I get unlazy I'll see if I can find the quote and post it.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Perhaps Leonard Bernstien's opinion sums this up. That is, when Beethoven takes an unusual turn in his music--chordal progression, single note, or whatever--that it is the ONLY thing that could have happened. It has a feeling of rightness about it and no other passage would have sufficed. If I get unlazy I'll see if I can find the quote and post it.

Sorrano,
Sounds about right to me, and also puts me in mind of the probably apocryphal exchange with Mozart;

Critic: There are too many notes, Mr. Mozart
Wolfgang: No sir, there are exactly the right number of notes!

Regards, Gurn ;-)))

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited January 11, 2003).]

[Jack Schmidt]

I find that my listening habits have changed over the past 14 years that I have taught at the university. Hearing the Beethoven 5th as often as I teach Intro to Music (every semester) has hungered me for many different recordings of the work. Its seems strange to listen to a different recording of the same as your ears get use to that one recording.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Jack Schmidt:
I find that my listening habits have changed over the past 14 years that I have taught at the university. Hearing the Beethoven 5th as often as I teach Intro to Music (every semester) has hungered me for many different recordings of the work. Its seems strange to listen to a different recording of the same as your ears get use to that one recording.

I find that if I hear a recording that sounds as I personally imagine the piece should be performed, I need no further recordings. For some pieces in my collection I have only ever heard one recording.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 29, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Jack Schmidt:
I find that my listening habits have changed over the past 14 years that I have taught at the university. Hearing the Beethoven 5th as often as I teach Intro to Music (every semester) has hungered me for many different recordings of the work. Its seems strange to listen to a different recording of the same as your ears get use to that one recording.

Have you tried the recording by Carlos Kleiber and the Wiener Philharmoniker? (1975). One of my favourite recordings of the 5th. It also has the 7th Symphony on it.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 29, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Have you tried the recording by Carlos Kleiber and the Wiener Philharmoniker? (1975). One of my favourite recordings of the 5th. It also has the 7th Symphony on it.

Joy

Yes I think I have heard this recording, or at least had a good sample of it (both symphonies) in Borders CD dept! Nothing really exeptional about it to me, (and you know I only seriously consider period instrument orchestras!) but it seems to be a popular recommendation.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 30, 2003).]

[Geordie]

Beethoven and punk rock: The lineage was claimed by a rock band member in atelevision nterview in Toronto a few years ago. Unfortunate;y, I don't have it better documented,although it's an idea that's stayed with me. Does anyone remember the story about Beethoven and Goethe meeting the empress and the royal court while walking near Teplitz in Bohemia. Goethe politely doffed his hat and went to the side of the road to allow the procession to pass. Beethoven, on the other hand, jammed his hat more tightly on his head and strode through the centre of the procession which, curiously
enough,parted (like the Red Sea for Moses) to
accommodate him. Then there was the waiter who got B's order wrong and wound up wearing
mutton chops as a faci8al adornment. As his deafness worsened, he cut off the legs of his pianos so he could play them sitting on the floor and thus feel the vibrations the sound created.
Of course, the comparison might find some justification in the music as well. For example, music lovers of the early 1800s had never heard a crescendo like that leading into the finale of the 5th symphony (some early listeners were frightened out of their wits) or a tonic superimposed on a dominant as at the return of the main theme in the first movement of the Eroica or a midnight sunrise like that in the introduction to the fourth.
I can better document a claim for Beethoven as the father of modern jazz. It was made by Robert Haven Schauffler in his 1929 book Beethoven: The Man Who Freed Music,
and he cites the scherzo of the sixth string quartet in B flat major opus 18 N0, 3. My own candidate for this latter honour would be the second variation, second movement of the C minor piano sonata (32) Op, 111.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Geordie:
As his deafness worsened, he cut off the legs of his pianos so he could play them sitting on the floor and thus feel the vibrations the sound created....

I think this is more an assumption than fact, firstly there's no need to cut the legs off, I believe they were able to be detached for removal. Considering he moved about so much I could be simply that B had not gotten round to reconnecting the legs. Also I think it would be difficult to play in this manner, and the pedals (or knee levers) would have no function. He didn't play his Broadwood or Graf pianos in this manner that's for certain, and by this time he was seriously deaf.

Originally posted by Geordie:

and he cites the scherzo of the sixth string quartet in B flat major opus 18 N0, 3. My own candidate for this latter honour would be the second variation, second movement of the C minor piano sonata (32) Op, 111.

We've discussed the variation before in this context, I personally have never heard this connection. I suppose it could depend on how you play it, and on what instrument.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 30, 2003).]