Listening Habits

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Well, I can understand your boss, given the average quality of classical 'music' played on Classic FM and BBC Radio 3 here in the UK. I think a significant proportion of it is utter garbage and an insult to the listener's intelligence. "Just 'cos it's got pipes and fiddles in it that don't necessarily mean its any good..".

No, sweetie. Not the radio. The Hanover Band Symphonies. And the stuff you gave me. It's beyond comprehension! You are correct about the quality of classical radio, though. And, of course, they don't play enough of our B (except in December). Please tell us about your strict order?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Suzie:

No, sweetie. Not the radio. The Hanover Band Symphonies. And the stuff you gave me. It's beyond comprehension! You are correct about the quality of classical radio, though. And, of course, they don't play enough of our B (except in December). Please tell us about your strict order?

Oh, well that's a different story then. Your boss needs a good slap (don't they all?). About the order there's not much more to add. With Beethoven roughly in order of composition though mixed to have an even spread of music genres as is possible within this order. With the Handel the same genre mixing but without the chronological order - probably this is because H's output is more stylistically homogenous throughout his career (though 'periods' can still be defined in H's case too). Within this framework I have the two composers mixed together in 'blocks' of circa 15 cds so that one does not get too neglected for too long. Am I completely mad or what? Do you have any strict orders Suz?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Suzie:.

... my classically piano trained boss turns off the good music, a nanosecond after she comes into the office in favor of 'classic rock'. How can this be?
S[/B]

The only explanation I can think of is that your boss had one of those unfortunate teachers that turned people off, not on, to music. Rod's right. She needs a "whack upside the head," as we say here in the Western US.

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Oh, well that's a different story then. Your boss needs a good slap (don't they all?). About the order there's not much more to add. With Beethoven roughly in order of composition though mixed to have an even spread of music genres as is possible within this order. With the Handel the same genre mixing but without the chronological order - probably this is because H's output is more stylistically homogenous throughout his career (though 'periods' can still be defined in H's case too). Within this framework I have the two composers mixed together in 'blocks' of circa 15 cds so that one does not get too neglected for too long. Am I completely mad or what? Do you have any strict orders Suz?

Firstly, I don't think you are mad. I think this is an interesting plan. I would have difficulty putting it together so feel free to send me the op.'s and the without's if you have the time.

Secondly, I used to want to slap HRH, but I finally have her 'broken in'. On 1/13 I get yet another boss. Maybe I'll have the opportunity to pop her one upside the head. The days are long without B.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Joy:
I also like to mix it up. I like to listen to a concerto and then a sympnhony sometimes even just one movement of a piece usually the allegro or scherzo. Sometimes I don't have a taste for the slower movements at all and just lsiten to the 'faster' ones.

Joy

Hmmmm...I've always liked both slow and fast movements. In fact a well-written symphony needs both.

But it takes much more artistry, intelligence and heart to play slow movements well. Even some major performers seem impatient with slow movements; listen to some of the old Heifetz recordings. By contrast, in Bruno Walter's B9 made in the late '50s, the third movement starts at an unusually slow tempo and actually broadens out for the last variation. I timed my own copy at 17:23 for that movement; I haven't heard any modern conductor take it that slow. He succeeds by his generosity: He gives each measure, each note, each phrase, its full value and meaning, discovered over a lifetime of dedication. Does John Eliot Gardiner do as well with his "historically accurate" much faster reading?

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited December 20, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Hmmmm...I've always liked both slow and fast movements. In fact a well-written symphony needs both.

But it takes much more artistry, intelligence and heart to play slow movements well. Even some major performers seem impatient with slow movements; listen to some of the old Heifetz recordings. By contrast, in Bruno Walter's B9 made in the late '50s, the third movement starts at an unusually slow tempo and actually broadens out for the last variation. I timed my own copy at 17:23 for that movement; I haven't heard any modern conductor take it that slow. He succeeds by his generosity: He gives each measure, each note, each phrase, its full value and meaning, discovered over a lifetime of dedication. Does John Eliot Gardiner do as well with his "historically accurate" much faster reading?

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited December 20, 2002).]

Concerning the Adagio of the 9th I would expect the time to be under 13 minutes at the very least. I have Gardiner's recording and I think it's in accord with this thinking, but it is a rather weak rendition. There are better period instrument recordings of this piece. The longest version I have bought was by Bohm - this lasted I think almost 20 mins. The shortest by Hogwood which lasted about 11 mins, maybe even less. The movement requires a rather more dynamic treatment than one usually hears in my opinion. I think the work as a whole work better as a result.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Concerning the Adagio of the 9th I would expect the time to be under 13 minutes at the very least.....(edit GB)...The longest version I have bought was by Bohm - this lasted I think almost 20 mins.

I just grabbed 2 versions at random off the top of my stack of '9th's' - The Adagio from Bernstein/VPO 1980 is 17'49", that from Solti/CSO 1987 is 19:59 (near enough to 20 mins. eh ;-)) I like both versions, and don't think that pace is too slow for an Adagio, esp. one marked "molto e cantabile". I have to admit that among my several versions, I don't have one as quick as 11:00 mins. and am not sure that I would like it too well either. Although, if anyone could bring it off.... Has Kleiber ever recorded a Ninth?
Regards, Gurn

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

[/b]

I just grabbed 2 versions at random off the top of my stack of '9th's' - The Adagio from Bernstein/VPO 1980 is 17'49", that from Solti/CSO 1987 is 19:59 (near enough to 20 mins. eh ;-)) I like both versions, and don't think that pace is too slow for an Adagio, esp. one marked "molto e cantabile". I have to admit that among my several versions, I don't have one as quick as 11:00 mins. and am not sure that I would like it too well either. Although, if anyone could bring it off.... Has Kleiber ever recorded a Ninth?
Regards, Gurn

[/B][/QUOTE]

My version by The Philharmonia Slavonica Coductor: Eugene Duvier shows the adagio being 13.36 which is a pretty good sounding tempo to me on this recording. I don't know if Kleiber ever did a 9th. I shall have to look that up when I have more time and get back to you.

Joy

[Joy]

Gurn,

I did some checking and found that Kleiber did conduct Beethoven's 1, 3, 4, 5, & 7 (and Fidelio) Symphonies. Can't find 2, 6, 8, or 9. Looks like he should have done all 9 but I could not find the 9th anywhere. Bet that woud have been a powerful one!

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited December 26, 2002).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
Gurn,

I did some checking and found that Kleiber did conduct Beethoven's 1, 3, 4, 5, & 7 (and Fidelio) Symphonies. Can't find 2, 6, 8, or 9. Looks like he should have done all 9 but I could not find the 9th anywhere. Bet that woud have been a powerful one!

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited December 26, 2002).]

Joy,
Thanks for looking that up. I had aroused my own curiosity and not had time to check it out. Yes, it would have been a winner, I think too. For me, who prefer modern versions anyway, Kleiber is very simpatico.
Thanks again, Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:

Originally posted by Rod:
Concerning the Adagio of the 9th I would expect the time to be under 13 minutes at the very least.....(edit GB)...The longest version I have bought was by Bohm - this lasted I think almost 20 mins.

I just grabbed 2 versions at random off the top of my stack of '9th's' - The Adagio from Bernstein/VPO 1980 is 17'49", that from Solti/CSO 1987 is 19:59 (near enough to 20 mins. eh ;-)) I like both versions, and don't think that pace is too slow for an Adagio, esp. one marked "molto e cantabile". I have to admit that among my several versions, I don't have one as quick as 11:00 mins. and am not sure that I would like it too well either. Although, if anyone could bring it off.... Has Kleiber ever recorded a Ninth?
Regards, Gurn

I doubt if Beethoven would have wanted this piece to last 20 mins, lest he would have indicated the most broad Largo possible! The qualification of 'cantabile' indicates a slightly quicker tempo if the song like nature is to be achived. Reardless, just look at the metronome indication and the issue is all but resolved.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I doubt if Beethoven would have wanted this piece to last 20 mins, lest he would have indicated the most broad Largo possible! The qualification of 'cantabile' indicates a slightly quicker tempo if the song like nature is to be achived. Reardless, just look at the metronome indication and the issue is all but resolved.

Rod,
I would guess you're right here. My Dover sets it at 60, which is pretty brisk. One thing I have noticed though, which would definitely affect the length regardless of tempo is that some conductors eschew repeats, regarding them as optional. 8 minutes being such a substantial amount of time to attribute to tempo, I wonder if that is what has happened here. As I said, I don't have any versions that are as short as yours, so am unable to compare. Just a thought.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
I would guess you're right here. My Dover sets it at 60, which is pretty brisk. One thing I have noticed though, which would definitely affect the length regardless of tempo is that some conductors eschew repeats, regarding them as optional. 8 minutes being such a substantial amount of time to attribute to tempo, I wonder if that is what has happened here. As I said, I don't have any versions that are as short as yours, so am unable to compare. Just a thought.
Regards, Gurn

Nothing has been ommitted in any of the recordings I have mentioned concerning this adagio. It is simply that the treatment of the notes is vastly different. With a metronome indication of 60 I think it would be impossible for Beethoven to have got it wrong via a faulty metronome! Everyone knows 60. Of course the tempo is just an indication for the phrasing of the opening bars and the rest should be paced in proportion, allowing the music to 'sing' as required. The concept of these lengthy super-broad adagios simply didn't exsist in Beethovens era as far as I am conserned.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Nothing has been ommitted in any of the recordings I have mentioned concerning this adagio. It is simply that the treatment of the notes is vastly different. With a metronome indication of 60 I think it would be impossible for Beethoven to have got it wrong via a faulty metronome! Everyone knows 60. Of course the tempo is just an indication for the phrasing of the opening bars and the rest should be paced in proportion, allowing the music to 'sing' as required. The concept of these lengthy super-broad adagios simply didn't exsist in Beethovens era as far as I am conserned.

Rod,
Well, I just don't know. Even though I propone upbeat tempos, and don't own a metronome, I listen to BPO/van Karajan 63 (at 16:25, the fastest I have), and tap out the time and it seems pretty right to me. You're right that the tempo only starts out at one speed and changes accordingly, but I (and many conductors, it seems) feel that accordingly can be slower as well as faster. Since B changed so many other things that were the norm for the time, perhaps he didn't feel that it was too great a stretch to write a "lengthy super-broad adagio" either? After all, look at the controversy he engendered with the length of Eroica. The concept of a "lengthy super-broad symphony" apparently didn't exist at the time either. Oh well, no settling this one out, I fear. That's my opinion, I may be wrong. But probably not.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Since B changed so many other things that were the norm for the time, perhaps he didn't feel that it was too great a stretch to write a "lengthy super-broad adagio" either? After all, look at the controversy he engendered with the length of Eroica. The concept of a "lengthy super-broad symphony" apparently didn't exist at the time either. Oh well, no settling this one out, I fear. That's my opinion, I may be wrong. But probably not.
Regards, Gurn

The length of the Eroica concerns the length of the piece in its entireity, whereas here we are discussing 'super-broad' in connection with an adagio movment. I've never heard any of B's relatively few largos/larghettos played as broadly as some renditions of this adagio. If you prefer it nearer to 20 minutes that's fair enough, but you know I prefer it under 13 and I think the metronome mark must be more in line with this thinking. One of the variations is quite virtuosic and works very nicely at a very quick tempo (Hogwood), this alone can save you a lot of time overall! I think the melodies come over stronger at a quicker tempo though of course the phrasing has to be right, played on gut strings without too much vibrato a most engaging transparent effect can be produced.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 02, 2003).]