Beethoven 's religion.

[ann hathaway]

In his letter of 18th July,1821, Beethoven informed the Archduke Rudolph;
"God who sees into my innermost heart and knows that as a man I perform most conscientiously and on all occasions the duties which humanity, God and Nature enjoin upon me, will doubtless rescue me in the end from my afflictions.

Beethoven found consolation in God and Nature.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Really? I would be very surprised if nuns did not teach you in Catholic school that not attending mass on Sunday constitutes a mortal sin.

I only meant they didn't do it in a threatening or 'trying to scare us' manner.
None of them used rulers either!! A Priest once told me that there is no difference between a mortal sin and a venial sin, that a sin is a sin.
Anyway, my Aunt was a nun and she was one of the nicest persons I ever knew, always so cheerful and helpful.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

[spaceray]

originally posted by Gurn Blanston In his time he was a leader in social justice and in maintaining the forward-looking views of the Enlightenment.[/B]

Beethoven and his buddies at the tavern or the coffee house had to keep their voices down to avoid being arrested , they were upset with the religious leaders and church politics by this time(1819 ?) but he still seems friendly with the aristrocracy wern't they just as much to blame for the food shortages and the devaluing of the currency?

[Chris]

Originally posted by Joy:
I only meant they didn't do it in a threatening or 'trying to scare us' manner.
None of them used rulers either!! A Priest once told me that there is no difference between a mortal sin and a venial sin, that a sin is a sin.
Anyway, my Aunt was a nun and she was one of the nicest persons I ever knew, always so cheerful and helpful.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

Well, I have never known a priest or nun that tried to scare me or threaten me either. But, you know, sometimes priests need to be firm, and people take it rather personally. I had several nuns in my family too, but I never saw much of them, unfortunately.

And shame on that priest!

[Chris]

Originally posted by heidi:
If you don't admire someone such as Beethoven, who do you admire? I admire him for persuing what he thought he was meant to do. I have a childrens book (plus about 100 others) on Beethoven titled 'The Value of Giving, The Story of Beethoven' that shows in its own way how Beethoven did not let his deafness stop him. It made him work all the more, plus more even though he knew it would be a great stuggle. And as far as his faith in God, I don't think he ever cursed or blamed God for what was happening to him , but questioned 'why' and believed it was something he had to overcome. He knew he had a great gift to share with all of us. I admire him for that!

As I said, I admire his musical skill, but if you want an example of someone I admire as a man, I would say St. Francis of Assisi would be a good example.

But don't get me wrong, I respect very much how Beethoven overcame his difficulties and excelled inspite of them. I once composed a great speech on the subject, in fact.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited January 24, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Beethoven and his buddies at the tavern or the coffee house had to keep their voices down to avoid being arrested , they were upset with the religious leaders and church politics by this time(1819 ?) but he still seems friendly with the aristrocracy wern't they just as much to blame for the food shortages and the devaluing of the currency?

Yes they were responsible for the inflation of the times, and he was at least as much a victim of it as anyone was. The quote above from the 9th symphony (the words are inspired by Schiller but adapted by B) are a direct product of the beliefs of the Enlightenment, and they really speak from the heart here, more than alliances with one or another social class, I think. Allying with the clergy would be profitable perhaps, but I believe that he found them intolerable for their secular rather than spiritual slant (as was common in the time), and he was none too fond of the aristocracy either, witness the boorish was he treated them and his remarks to Goethe quoted here recently. I think he took up with members of that class because of the choices, this was the least intolerable to him. Somewhere there is a line between hypocrisy and survival, and I think he straddled it quite nicely. But the music was never compromised, and that is the essence of the man; he made necessary compromises to physically survive, but he never sold out what was his true self, his music. I am grateful that he had this admirable amount of intestinal fortitude. Thousands wouldn't (didn't). In any case, I maintain that he was a Deist, and since that works for me, I can easily accept it from him.
Regards, Gurn

[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited January 24, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Joy:
I only meant they didn't do it in a threatening or 'trying to scare us' manner.
None of them used rulers either!! A Priest once told me that there is no difference between a mortal sin and a venial sin, that a sin is a sin.
Anyway, my Aunt was a nun and she was one of the nicest persons I ever knew, always so cheerful and helpful.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

Joy,
I am pleased for you then, that you escaped this particular form of hell. I started in Catholic school in 1956, and belive me, I was made aware of the potential tortures that awaited my soul should I stray from the straight and narrow path. I can't fault the ladies for my education, I think it was better than average, but they were ready at a moment's notice to consign me to my just reward, believe me. I don't doubt that things have changed, else in this age of information there would be no one available to accept that sort of treatment. But I can't deny that it existed, and I suspect it was only a shadow of the sort of thing that B had to put up with in a time when the sheriff was an employee of the bishop!
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:


In his Oratorio- Christus Am Olberge - Beethoven throug his religious fervour, was able to find some relief from and resignation to his suffering by co-sharing
them with Christ the son of God, the innocent victim who submitted to suffering and death for the redemption of all humankind.

The text of this oratorio was regarded as utterly blasphemous here in England at least. I'm still amazed that such things were allowed to be performed in a Catholic country in those days!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Well, I have never known a priest or nun that tried to scare me or threaten me either. But, you know, sometimes priests need to be firm, and people take it rather personally. I had several nuns in my family too, but I never saw much of them, unfortunately.

And shame on that priest!

Well, I had quite fun talking with my Aunt and she would always have such a great sense of humour.

I was quite perplexed also when that Priest told me that. Maybe they each have their own way of thinking on this matter. This was some time ago.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Joy,
I am pleased for you then, that you escaped this particular form of hell. I started in Catholic school in 1956, and belive me, I was made aware of the potential tortures that awaited my soul should I stray from the straight and narrow path. I can't fault the ladies for my education, I think it was better than average, but they were ready at a moment's notice to consign me to my just reward, believe me. I don't doubt that things have changed, else in this age of information there would be no one available to accept that sort of treatment. But I can't deny that it existed, and I suspect it was only a shadow of the sort of thing that B had to put up with in a time when the sheriff was an employee of the bishop!
Regards, Gurn

I did not attend Parochial school but I did attend catechism classes every Saturday growing up. I understand the stories of straying from the straight and narrow path and what would be awaiting you after this life, some were pretty mean about it as I've heard stories from my Mom when she was growing up. I'm glad they've relaxed a little now and don't feel that they need to give people such a guilt trip anymore.

Joy

[Chris]

Originally posted by Joy:
Well, I had quite fun talking with my Aunt and she would always have such a great sense of humour.

I guess I missed out on a lot of great family stuff, since my immediate family always lived far away from the rest of our relatives. Most of them have passed away now

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
The text of this oratorio was regarded as utterly blasphemous here in England at least. I'm still amazed that such things were allowed to be performed in a Catholic country in those days!

Curious. Was Austria primarly Catholic, then? My understanding, at least of Germany, is that there was a lot of Protestant influence, via the Lutheran Church (Bach was Lutheran, if I am not mistaken).

[Andrea]

Is Austria primarily catholic? Is the Pope catholic? Here is a little data I found on this subject:

"Austria
THE BAROQUE ERA
Political and Religious Consolidation under Leopold.

Reconstruction of the social, political, and economic infrastructure destroyed by the Thirty Years' War began during the reign of Ferdinand III (r. 1637-57) and continued through the reign of his son, Leopold I (r. 1658-1705). Central to the restoration of the Habsburgs' social and political base was the reestablishment of the Roman Catholic Church. But the Habsburgs did not seek to make the church an independent force within society. They found no contradiction between personal piety and use of religion as a political tool and defended and advanced their sovereign rights over and against the institutional church.

The Habsburg effort to establish religious conformity was based on the model already implemented in Bohemia. Closure of Protestant churches, expulsions, and Catholic appointments to vacated positions eliminated centers of Protestant power. Reform commissions made up of clergy and representatives of local diets appointed missionaries to Protestant areas. After a period of instruction, the populace was given a choice between conversion and emigration--an estimated 40,000 people emigrated between 1647 and 1652.

The reestablishment of Catholic intellectual life and religious orders and monasteries was a key component of Habsburg Counter-Reformation policies. The Jesuits led this effort, and their influence was broadly disseminated throughout Central European society, owing to their excellent schools, near monopoly over higher education, and emphasis on lay organizations, which provided a channel for popular devotional piety. Benedictine, Cistercian, and Augustinian monastic foundations were also revitalized through the careful management of their estates, and their schools rivaled those of the Jesuits.

Through the court's patronage of the arts and religious orders and through public celebrations, both secular and religious, the dynasty transmitted a worldview based on the values of the Counter-Reformation. These values, rather than common governmental institutions and laws, gave the Heriditary Lands a sense of unity and identity that compensated for the continued weakness of administrative bodies at the center of Habsburg rule."

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Curious. Was Austria primarly Catholic, then? My understanding, at least of Germany, is that there was a lot of Protestant influence, via the Lutheran Church (Bach was Lutheran, if I am not mistaken).

Either way it makes little difference, Jesus is an actor and a singer and a man with doubts in Christus, something not tolerated in wholely Protestant England. I got the impression that the powers that be in Austria at the time were Catholic.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 26, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Is Austria primarily catholic? Is the Pope catholic? Here is a little data I found on this subject:

Thanks! I have little knowledge about Austrian background. Obviously.