Beethoven 's religion.

[spaceray]

A book I am reading titled "Beethoven and the age of revolution" by Frida Knight mentions that LVB was not a churchgoer but if he was the court organist wasn't he attending church every Sunday to write for and play the organ for the court chapel services ?

[Chris]

When he was the court organist, obviously he would have been at Mass frequently. I assume the "not a churchgoer" remark refered to after that.

[Peter]

I got into hot water over this one last time - Some lady sent an email complaining as I had dared to suggest that Beethoven was not a devout Catholic - I stick by that. He did however have a deep faith in God. I don't know why people get so het up over this subject, but there you go!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I got into hot water over this one last time - Some lady sent an email complaining as I had dared to suggest that Beethoven was not a devout Catholic - I stick by that. He did however have a deep faith in God. I don't know why people get so het up over this subject, but there you go!

That, too, is my understanding. I recall that trees were important, religiously, to Beethoven--that he saw the handprint, if you will, of his creator in the trees.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

That, too, is my understanding. I recall that trees were important, religiously, to Beethoven--that he saw the handprint, if you will, of his creator in the trees.

He had an almost mystical approach to religion that was influenced by Eastern religions. God wasn't the Old Testament God of anger to be feared, but a loving divinity approachable for Beethoven through music.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Yes,I agree he seems to have had a more human approach to his faith rather than a formal approach,his church music writing retains its Beethovianess in all respects.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I got into hot water over this one last time - Some lady sent an email complaining as I had dared to suggest that Beethoven was not a devout Catholic - I stick by that. He did however have a deep faith in God. I don't know why people get so het up over this subject, but there you go!

I would think the reason for that is obvious. It's the same reason some strong athiests are certain he was an athiest and some blacks insist he was black! Beethoven was clearly one of the most gifted composers of all time. People tend to want to see aspects of themselves in such amazingly talented people. It makes them feel somehow justified for thinking or being a certain way. This is especially true of people who are sufficiently ignorant of their particular belief they are insisting was held by Beethoven or whoever they are talking about that they are unable to justify it to themselves intellectually. Thus, this becomes their justification in a way.

Unfortunately, Catholics in general are especially guilty of this, as it seems many of them have not received proper religious education and know little to nothing of even the basics of their faith. Add to this the strong anti-Catholic attitudes they will often come up against (particularly in the United States, I have observed), and you will see them go on the defensive very quickly, but not armed with anything with which to defend themselves. So, they resort to this kind of thing.

Of course, that is obviously nonsense, because the fact that Beethoven was an outstanding composer does not mean his views on theology or philosophy are necessarily anything special. Or any other aspects of his life, for that matter.

Indeed, I personally find very little to admire in Beethoven beyond his music. I think if you are in search of someone to admire as a great man, you can do far better than Beethoven.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
Indeed, I personally find very little to admire in Beethoven beyond his music. I think if you are in search of someone to admire as a great man, you can do far better than Beethoven.

Chris, I agree with much of what you say. But I think Beethoven's perserverence and triumph over his deafness is something to be very much admired in his personality. I don't know of any other great individual on his level, who was so hampered in a faculty so central to his achievement.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Chris, I agree with much of what you say. But I think Beethoven's perserverence and triumph over his deafness is something to be very much admired in his personality. I don't know of any other great individual on his level, who was so hampered in a faculty so central to his achievement.

Indeed, but I would personally classify that more as "interesting" than "admirable." (And I do find Beethoven very interesting.) And besides, I think his deafness was not so serious an obstacle to his craft as we might think. Even I am able to compsose fairly well without ever hearing a note of it, and certainly I have less musical talent than Beethoven did by many orders of magnitude. I feel sorry for him more on a social level. It must have been maddening not to be able to hear what people are saying all the time! Musically, I think the biggest blow his deafness dealt him was that he could not perform in public. I know that would have depressed me if I were Beethoven! But I think he burned to compose more than play or anything else, so maybe it was not as bad for him. I'm not sure.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
But I think he burned to compose more than play or anything else, so maybe it was not as bad for him. I'm not sure.

I think the Heiligenstadt testament shows just how bad it was for him, certainly at that stage in his life. I think later on he learnt to accept, which certainly is admirable.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
Indeed, I personally find very little to admire in Beethoven beyond his music. I think if you are in search of someone to admire as a great man, you can do far better than Beethoven.

Usually we define great men/women by what they achieve in life, and on that score I think Beethoven takes some beating.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Spaceray, I read the book 'Beethoven and the Age of Revolution' some years back and remember it was very good. Beethoven was born a Catholic and was given the last rights during his final illness, albeit there is some speculation on whether he wanted it or not. I have to agree with Chazz too that just by Beethoven's courage to overcome his difficulties and there were more than just his deafness, this was a very admirable trait of his and something to be admired and he could be looked upon as an inspiration.

Joy

[Andrea]

Quoted from the book, "Beethoven: The Man and the Artist, As Revealed In His Own Words":

"Beethoven was through and through a religious man though not in the confessional sense. Reared in the Catholic faith he early attained to an independent opinion on religious things...
In all things liberty was the fundamental principle of Beethoven's life. His favorite book was Sturm's `Observations Concerning God's Works in Nature´, which he recommended to the priests for wide distribution among the people. He saw the hand of God in even the most insignificant natural phenomenon. God was to him the Supreme Being whom he had jubilantly hymned in the choral portion of the Ninth Symphony in the words of Schiller:"Brothers, beyond yon starry canopy there must dwell a loving Father!" Beethoven's relationship to God was that of a child toward his loving father to whom he confides all his joys as well as sorrows. It is said that once he narrowly escaped excommunication for having said that Jesus was only a poor human being and a Jew. Haydn, ingenuously pious, is reported to have called Beethoven an atheist."

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the Heiligenstadt testament shows just how bad it was for him, certainly at that stage in his life. I think later on he learnt to accept, which certainly is admirable.

Worthy of respect, I think, but not admiration. To me, at least, admiration is not for those who have had hardships come into their lives, but for those who have taken hardships upon themselves for a greater good.

I would not call a man who has accomplished many great things a great man. Rather I would call a great man someone who is "great" in less worldly matters, like honor and compassion.

But of course there are aspects of Beethoven that are admirable. His musical skill, naturally.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Chris:
Worthy of respect, I think, but not admiration. To me, at least, admiration is not for those who have had hardships come into their lives, but for those who have taken hardships upon themselves for a greater good.

I would not call a man who has accomplished many great things a great man. Rather I would call a great man someone who is "great" in less worldly matters, like honor and compassion.

But of course there are aspects of Beethoven that are admirable. His musical skill, naturally.

Very nicely said Chris.