Beethoven 's religion.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, this topic certainly brought everyone out! Just a few observations from my perspective. Going to church every week does not make one a religious person; conversely, not going to church does not make one anti-religion either. Not subscribing to a religion does not make one an atheist. Having been brought up a catholic in America, at the tail end of the period before "world ecumenism" I have to agree that catholics of that time were taught to be intolerant of other religions. I don't necessarily agree that we were not educated in our religion; I got nothing but for 12 years and would match my knowledge of it and others with anyone short of a theology student. As a sidelight to intolerance, I saw on CNN a couple of months ago that the Lutheran Bishop of New York was excommunicated by the Lutheran Council for co-serving at the services for the victims of 9/11 on the grounds that he was in a house of worship with Jews, Catholics and the like who were condemned to hell because of their beliefs. How is THAT for religious intolerance!!!
Beyond music, Beethoven's constant belief in the higher good of man, and his espousal of world brotherhood (Elysium) are certainly admirable, particularly in contrast to the xenophobic beliefs of that time. Perhaps in today's world he would be viewed as a 'throwback', but hell, he is. In his time he was a leader in social justice and in maintaining the forward-looking views of the Enlightenment. I find much to admire in that. Just my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

[chopithoven]

Then, Beethoven was a deist? If so, why he did not follow the catholic influence of his family, I mean, why he "did not attend mass regularly"?

[Andrea]

I think that when it comes to the question about Beethoven and his not being a "practicing Catholic", I myself can truely relate to that. I was baptised, raised and went to catholic school for 12 years. This was in the 1960s and early 70s and after I graduated in 1974 I haven't been to a mass since. Maybe Beethoven, like myself, came to see what a joke the catholic religion was. When I was in school we were told that if we didn't go to mass every Sunday that when we died we would go straight to hell. The nuns would show us paintings of Dante's Inferno and they would say that this was where we would go if we didn't go to church. We were just kids and we believed this crap! We were taught that the catholic faith was the only one to be and that all others were beneath us. My school was named St. Dominics and we all know who he was: "the father of the Spanish Inquisition".

I personally don't think that if you believe in God that you will find him only in a church. I, like Beethoven, feel that God (whoever he may be) is everywhere; in the trees, the rocks, the sky etc. I feel more at peace and nearer to God when I am walking in my Vienna Woods, not inside of a church. Beethoven too felt he was nearer to God when he was out in the nature. Here in his own words while he was on the Kahlenberg, Sept. 1812:
"Almighty One in the woods I am blessed. Happy everyone in the woods. Every tree speaks through Thee. O God! What glory in the Woodland. On the heights is peace,- Peace to serve Him."

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Then, Beethoven was a deist? If so, why he did not follow the catholic influence of his family, I mean, why he "did not attend mass regularly"?

Because Beethoven was a free-thinker and did not accept things just because that's how they are. His dealings with the aristocracy also show this side of his nature and I think it is another very admirable quality not mentioned by Chris! As Andrea said, he found God in nature and the arts, not in a stone building (no matter how beautiful).

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
I would not call a man who has accomplished many great things a great man. Rather I would call a great man someone who is "great" in less worldly matters, like honor and compassion.

I don't think Beethoven was totally devoid of honour or compassion! true he had his moments, but just think what the man went through not just with his deafness and its consequences (most notably in his social relations), but with his other physical ailments. There can be no doubt that he longed for intimacy but was unable to find it - this must have caused him much depression and frustration. The man certainly suffered and many people would and have committed suicide for far less - he overcame all that and gave the world its greatest music - that deserves respect and admiration.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Andrea:


I personally don't think that if you believe in God that you will find him only in a church. I, like Beethoven, feel that God (whoever he may be) is everywhere; in the trees, the rocks, the sky etc. I feel more at peace and nearer to God when I am walking in my Vienna Woods, not inside of a church. Beethoven too felt he was nearer to God when he was out in the nature. Here in his own words while he was on the Kahlenberg, Sept. 1812:
"Almighty One in the woods I am blessed. Happy everyone in the woods. Every tree speaks through Thee. O God! What glory in the Woodland. On the heights is peace,- Peace to serve Him."

Well said! And thanks! That was the quote I was trying to remember in my earlier post.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I think that when it comes to the question about Beethoven and his not being a "practicing Catholic", I myself can truely relate to that. I was baptised, raised and went to catholic school for 12 years. This was in the 1960s and early 70s and after I graduated in 1974 I haven't been to a mass since. Maybe Beethoven, like myself, came to see what a joke the catholic religion was.
.... I, like Beethoven, feel that God (whoever he may be) is everywhere; in the trees, the rocks, the sky etc. I feel more at peace and nearer to God when I am walking in my Vienna Woods, not inside of a church. Beethoven too felt he was nearer to God when he was out in the nature. Here in his own words while he was on the Kahlenberg, Sept. 1812:
"Almighty One in the woods I am blessed. Happy everyone in the woods. Every tree speaks through Thee. O God! What glory in the Woodland. On the heights is peace,- Peace to serve Him."

Andrea,
I am gratified to see that my own experience and reaction to it are not unique. There is a lot to be said for Deism, especially when it is enlisted as a means to escape from the Inferno!
Regards, Gurn

[Joy]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I think that when it comes to the question about Beethoven and his not being a "practicing Catholic", I myself can truely relate to that. I was baptised, raised and went to catholic school for 12 years. This was in the 1960s and early 70s and after I graduated in 1974 I haven't been to a mass since. Maybe Beethoven, like myself, came to see what a joke the catholic religion was.

I wouldn't go that far Andrea! I'm Catholic too and attend church pretty regularly. True it might have been harsher a long time ago but if you would go now you'd find it's not that bad. My Mom used to say when they would go to confesion years and years ago, they would be frightened into being 'good'. Now the confessional is quite different. They don't use scare tactics anymore or threaten that you'll go to hell for what you confessed. As a matter of fact, they're pretty tolerant of a lot of things now.

[/B][/QUOTE]

When I was in school we were told that if we didn't go to mass every Sunday that when we died we would go straight to hell. The nuns would show us paintings of Dante's Inferno and they would say that this was where we would go if we didn't go to church. We were just kids and we believed this crap! We were taught that the catholic faith was the only one to be and that all others were beneath us.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Cheeze, you're nuns must have been pretty tough! I went to Catholic catecism all my youth as well and I don't remember any nuns telling us we would go to hell if we didn't attend mass every Sun. or 'threatening' us in any way. We just learned about the religion and the sacraments, etc. Maybe it's the schools that taught differently.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Because Beethoven was a free-thinker and did not accept things just because that's how they are. His dealings with the aristocracy also show this side of his nature and I think it is another very admirable quality not mentioned by Chris!

I agree with this that Beethoven was a free thinker and didn't follow too many rules, however, mostof us would get into trouble living this way! That was an admirable quality for sure.

[/B][/QUOTE]

As Andrea said, he found God in nature and the arts, not in a stone building (no matter how beautiful).

[/B][/QUOTE]

True. You can find God everywhere because he is everywhere especially in nature. I still enjoy the peace and solitude and the beauty of a church though.

Joy

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think Beethoven was totally devoid of honour or compassion! true he had his moments, but just think what the man went through not just with his deafness and its consequences (most notably in his social relations), but with his other physical ailments. There can be no doubt that he longed for intimacy but was unable to find it - this must have caused him much depression and frustration. The man certainly suffered and many people would and have committed suicide for far less - he overcame all that and gave the world its greatest music - that deserves respect and admiration.

I don't think he was totally devoid of honor and compassion, I just don't think he had them in such quantities as to merit admiration based on them. As I said, I can respect him for how he dealt with his difficulties, but my admiration is reserved for other things. But by all means, if you want to admire him, admire away. Who we choose to admire is a very personal thing, after all.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Joy:
Cheeze, you're nuns must have been pretty tough! I went to Catholic catecism all my youth as well and I don't remember any nuns telling us we would go to hell if we didn't attend mass every Sun. or 'threatening' us in any way. We just learned about the religion and the sacraments, etc. Maybe it's the schools that taught differently.
Joy

Really? I would be very surprised if nuns did not teach you in Catholic school that not attending mass on Sunday constitutes a mortal sin.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
As Andrea said, he found God in nature and the arts, not in a stone building (no matter how beautiful).

I cannot imagine any Catholic talking about finding God in a stone building. Are you sure you're not thinking of Shinto!?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I cannot imagine any Catholic talking about finding God in a stone building. Are you sure you're not thinking of Shinto!?

Now now Chris!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[ann hathaway]

Through his music it is most evident that Beethoven is a profoundly spiritual and religious person.

The verses from the 9th symphony tell us;-

Seid umschlungen, millionen! Diesen Kuss der ganzen Welt!
Bruder-uberm Sternenzelt Muss ein lieber Vater wohnen.

Ihr sturzt nieder, Millionen, Ahnest du den Schopfer, Welt?
Such ihn uberm Sternenzelt! Uber sterner muss er wohnen.


I can only sing these verses in German they don't seem right in English.


Roughly in English;
Be embraced you millions! This kiss is for all the wold!
Brothers, above the canopoy of stars there must dwell a loving Father.

Do you fall on your knees, you millions?
world do you see your maker?
Seek him beyond the stars! Beyond the stars he must dwell.


From the age of eleven, Beethoven became involved in official court religious functions. After his reception into the Von Breuning family, Ludwig came under the religious influence of Canon Lorenz Von Breuning and Abraham Von Kerich.
In due course, Ludwig came to ponder the great unfathomable mysteries of christianity- the incarnation, the blessed trinity, and the mystery of God's Love- That God so loved humanity that he sent his only son to redeem mankind, thourgh the ultimate act of love, in suffering and death, prior to his resurrection into Glory..
I believe the Martyrdom of Christ had the most profound influence on Beethoven's philosophy.

For Beethoven, his music was a Sacrament and listening is akin to receiving the body and blood, and thereby being transmuted into the Elixir of heaven.
His music is a selfless giving and pouring out of himself to the world, and accepted the burden and suffering of man and carried his own personal tragedy to the grave.
He wanted to redeem mankind through his music.
His epitaph is a world that his been transformed by his presence, and I ever praise him for it!

In his Oratorio- Christus Am Olberge - Beethoven throug his religious fervour, was able to find some relief from and resignation to his suffering by co-sharing
them with Christ the son of God, the innocent victim who submitted to suffering and death for the redemption of all humankind.

I referred to his Oratorio earlier here on the Christmas page.

I am sure Beethoven would have loved
The beautiful, Spem in Alium, By Thomas Tallis;
I have never placed my hop in any other than you, O God of Israel, who can show both anger and graciousness, and absolve all the sins of suffering man.
Lord God, creator of heaven and earth, be mindful of our humiliation.

[heidi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris:
I don't think he was totally devoid of honor and compassion, I just don't think he had them in such quantities as to merit admiration based on them. As I said, I can respect him for how he dealt with his difficulties, but my admiration is reserved for other things. But by all means, if you want to admire him, admire away. Who we choose to admire is a very personal thing, after all.[/QUOTE


If you don't admire someone such as Beethoven, who do you admire? I admire him for persuing what he thought he was meant to do. I have a childrens book (plus about 100 others) on Beethoven titled 'The Value of Giving, The Story of Beethoven' that shows in its own way how Beethoven did not let his deafness stop him. It made him work all the more, plus more even though he knew it would be a great stuggle. And as far as his faith in God, I don't think he ever cursed or blamed God for what was happening to him , but questioned 'why' and believed it was something he had to overcome. He knew he had a great gift to share with all of us. I admire him for that!