Wagner

[Steppenwolf]

What are your views on this extraordinary man?
I have found that people either love him or hate him. I fall into the former category ... I have totally fallen under the spell of the 'Wizard of Bayreuth'! His music is so powerful, it gets into your veins and is intoxicating like a strong drug. I would even rank him higher than Beethoven (although only by a whisker) on my list of greatest composers.
He is criticised, primarly because of the Nazi connection. There are two points I would like to make about that
1)He died about 50 years before National Socialism emerged, and before Hitler was even born. We can't hold him responsible for the fact that the Nazis enjoyed his music when he was dead! And the fact that Hitler liked him doesn't automatically condemn him - Hitler was a vegetarian too, so is vegetarianism wrong?
2)I don't condone his antisemitism - on the contrary I am a PRO-semite (I have Jewish friends and am biased towards the Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict). But EVERYBODY, every human being, has character flaws, nobody is perfect. Wagner had his personal faults just like everybody, but that doesn't stop his music being great. We are not worshipping him as a saint, after all. He was a human being with faults and predjudices like everybody but his music is magnificent.

I find of particular interest his incorporation of the philosophy of Shopenhauer into his music, especially the later works like Der Ring des Nibelungen. The buddhist idea of all life consisting of suffering caused by human desires that are inexhaustable and can never be satisfied. Wagner's music takes the audience up into a stage of unreasolved anxiety and tension, and rarely lets them down. Note also the intense sexual tension that permeates the whole of Tristian und Isolde, possibly the most brilliant depiction of erotica ever translated into the language of music.
Perhaps one day, like Nietzche, I will become dissolusioned with Wagner, but for now I am enjoying the ride!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 20, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
What are your views on this extraordinary man?

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 20, 2003).]

Wagner's music has often stirred my soul, as well. When the Ring cycle was presented on TV several years ago I was transfixed by both the audio and visual presentation. Die Fliegende Hollander is perhaps my very favorite Opera (but there are so many to like!) I would not rank Wagner particularly high on my list simply because he was more specialized in his music and did not really branch out into the various forms. He was not a symphonist, yet composed at least one symphony. I think he was a key figure of the 19th Century in the dissolution of the tonal system of the 20th Century, therefore, did have some influence. Anyway, those are a few of my thoughts regarding Wagner.

[ann hathaway]

My husband adores Wagner, and we both love Wagner's intoxicating "Ring", I believe it took him 26 years to complete as his ideas kept changing, but it was well worth it.
My learned husband is also interested in Schopenhauer philosophy, it is facinating to read, even though I do not understand all of it. But then I can always refer to my husband.
I believe Wagner was genuinely an intellectual master on Schopenhauer philosophy.
I think Nietzsche was a bit Mad! Is it true he fell in love with Cosima, Wagner's wife?.

If you are into Richard Wagner, you might be interested in booking up to see, his opera, Tristan and Isolde, as the English Nationa Opera, performed in May through June. Please check for detials.

We have booked to see Handel's, Alcina and also the Trojans, by Berlioz. at ENO.
Check our their Web Site.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Hitler was a vegetarian too, so is vegetarianism wrong?

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 20, 2003).]

Yes.
Regards, Gurn


[This message has been edited by Gurn Blanston (edited January 20, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
What are your views on this extraordinary man?
I have found that people either love him or hate him. I fall into the former category ... I have totally fallen under the spell of the 'Wizard of Bayreuth'! His music is so powerful, it gets into your veins and is intoxicating like a strong drug. I would even rank him higher than Beethoven (although only by a whisker) on my list of greatest composers.
He is criticised, primarly because of the Nazi connection. There are two points I would like to make about that
1)He died about 50 years before National Socialism emerged, and before Hitler was even born. We can't hold him responsible for the fact that the Nazis enjoyed his music when he was dead! And the fact that Hitler liked him doesn't automatically condemn him - Hitler was a vegetarian too, so is vegetarianism wrong?
2)I don't condone his antisemitism - on the contrary I am a PRO-semite (I have Jewish friends and am biased towards the Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict). But EVERYBODY, every human being, has character flaws, nobody is perfect. Wagner had his personal faults just like everybody, but that doesn't stop his music being great. We are not worshipping him as a saint, after all. He was a human being with faults and predjudices like everybody but his music is magnificent.

I find of particular interest his incorporation of the philosophy of Shopenhauer into his music, especially the later works like Der Ring des Nibelungen. The buddhist idea of all life consisting of suffering caused by human desires that are inexhaustable and can never be satisfied. Wagner's music takes the audience up into a stage of unreasolved anxiety and tension, and rarely lets them down. Note also the intense sexual tension that permeates the whole of Tristian und Isolde, possibly the most brilliant depiction of erotica ever translated into the language of music.
Perhaps one day, like Nietzche, I will become dissolusioned with Wagner, but for now I am enjoying the ride!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 20, 2003).]

We have discussed Wagner at some length on other threads here - I think the man had more than a few faults, I think he was quite vile! Having said that I agree that his music (much of which I admire) should not be judged by that - Sir George Solti who was a Hungarian Jew had no qualms in conducting Wagner - he had the wisdom to separate the ghastly events of the Nazis from Wagner. I believe Solti also took up a post in Munich within a few years of the end of the war - a truly magnaminous man. As to Wagner being greater than Beethoven, I definitely do not agree!

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
What are your views on this extraordinary man?
I have found that people either love him or hate him. I fall into the former category ... I have totally fallen under the spell of the 'Wizard of Bayreuth'! His music is so powerful, it gets into your veins and is intoxicating like a strong drug. I would even rank him higher than Beethoven (although only by a whisker) on my list of greatest composers.
He is criticised, primarly because of the Nazi connection. There are two points I would like to make about that
1)He died about 50 years before National Socialism emerged, and before Hitler was even born. We can't hold him responsible for the fact that the Nazis enjoyed his music when he was dead! And the fact that Hitler liked him doesn't automatically condemn him - Hitler was a vegetarian too, so is vegetarianism wrong?
2)I don't condone his antisemitism - on the contrary I am a PRO-semite (I have Jewish friends and am biased towards the Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict). But EVERYBODY, every human being, has character flaws, nobody is perfect. Wagner had his personal faults just like everybody, but that doesn't stop his music being great. We are not worshipping him as a saint, after all. He was a human being with faults and predjudices like everybody but his music is magnificent.

I find of particular interest his incorporation of the philosophy of Shopenhauer into his music, especially the later works like Der Ring des Nibelungen. The buddhist idea of all life consisting of suffering caused by human desires that are inexhaustable and can never be satisfied. Wagner's music takes the audience up into a stage of unreasolved anxiety and tension, and rarely lets them down. Note also the intense sexual tension that permeates the whole of Tristian und Isolde, possibly the most brilliant depiction of erotica ever translated into the language of music.
Perhaps one day, like Nietzche, I will become dissolusioned with Wagner, but for now I am enjoying the ride!

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 20, 2003).]

"unresolved tension and anxiety" this describes exactly how Wagner strikes me.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
What are your views on this extraordinary man?
I have found that people either love him or hate him. I fall into the former category ... I have totally fallen under the spell of the 'Wizard of Bayreuth'! His music is so powerful, it gets into your veins and is intoxicating like a strong drug.

Steppenwolf, you have made my day with your praise of Wagner. I thought I was the only one on this forum who liked his music. I don't know if you're aware that I've posted two works by him, on two different threads. There will be more soon on the 'Wagner Tracks' thread.

I also am intoxicated by his music. Over the past year it has often put me on quite another plane of being, as if I'm in paradise. As far as general musical influence as opposed to purely operatic, not only did he begin the transition to atonality, he also brought the orchestra to its (I believe) largest size and highest pitch of perfection tonally. As I have said elsewhere, even when his inspiration flags sometimes, as in the long-winded speeches of Wotan in the Ring (IMHO, anyway), I just listen to the orchestra and I'm still moved. I cannot imagine any more perfect orchestration.

[SR]

Since you asked I don't care for him. The Nazi connection goes much deeper than you allude to, and yes Wagner was dead. But, while alive he was a fervent anti-semite. His operas are largely based on the super race idea. Hitler took inspiration from him he didn't just "like his music". Hitler considered visits to Wagners grave to be spiritual events. Hitler courted Wagners daughter and took her sons into the inner circle of the Third Reich. The Nazi party saved the Bayreauth festival and used it as a propaganda tool and meeting place. Would Hitler have done the things he did without inspiration from Wagner ? I can't say for certain. Would Wagner have been invited in to Hitler Reich ? Would he have gone along in the holocaust willingly ? Maybe, but he was dead. There was a special on the History Channel here in the US called Hitlers Women. One of the subjects was the daughter. They layed out quite clearly the ties between Hitler and the Wagner family. The connection was far deeper than "Hitler liked his music".

All that said, I consider him to be a master of orchestral colors. Some on the intrumental passages in his operas are the amoung most beautiful things ever written.
I do not however enjoy his operas in the least. He was terribly misguided as to how to write for the human voice. It's really a shame he didn't write symphonies. He indeed missed his true calling.

Regards

Steve



[This message has been edited by SR (edited January 21, 2003).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Steppenwolf, you have made my day with your praise of Wagner. I thought I was the only one on this forum who liked his music. I don't know if you're aware that I've posted two works by him, on two different threads. There will be more soon on the 'Wagner Tracks' thread.

I also am intoxicated by his music. Over the past year it has often put me on quite another plane of being, as if I'm in paradise. As far as general musical influence as opposed to purely operatic, not only did he begin the transition to atonality, he also brought the orchestra to its (I believe) largest size and highest pitch of perfection tonally. As I have said elsewhere, even when his inspiration flags sometimes, as in the long-winded speeches of Wotan in the Ring (IMHO, anyway), I just listen to the orchestra and I'm still moved. I cannot imagine any more perfect orchestration.

The interesting thing about my love of Wagner is that paradoxically I am not a big fan of Romantic Music (my favourite is Baroque, and some Classical). I find it too drawn-out, too over-emphasised, too over orchestrated, too heavy, too intense, too introverted, to emotionally self-indulgent and too dreary. A lot of it I find quite boring. Wagner is all of the above (except the dreary and boring bit), and the ultimate Romantic, and yet I make an exception for him. Perhaps because he did it so well, that I can't help but be taken in by it. I admire the way in which he took a genre and perfected it, even if the genre itself it not really my fist choice.
I think what Wagner excells in is drama. His music is dramatically brilliant. That's why Hollywood soundtracks very often follow the Wagner style.
I also admire Wagner as a philosopher. Certainly, I don't agree with everything, and a lot of what he came up with is quite crack-pot. But he is an exceedingly interesting person, and deserves credit for comming up with so many interesting ideas. A colourful personality, certainly with a dark side, but he has the same charasmatic appeal as some controversial rock stars ... to me he is like a classical rock star.
It as an ambition of mine to go to Bayreuth.

BTW, I notice, Chaszz, that you post on the Bach-talk website. Go and have a look at my recent (first) contribution to that site and tell me what you think.




[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 22, 2003).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by SR:
Since you asked I don't care for him. The Nazi connection goes much deeper than you allude to, and yes Wagner was dead. But, while alive he was a fervent anti-semite. His operas are largely based on the super race idea. Hitler took inspiration from him he didn't just "like his music". Hitler considered visits to Wagners grave to be spiritual events. Hitler courted Wagners daughter and took her sons into the inner circle of the Third Reich. The Nazi party saved the Bayreauth festival and used it as a propaganda tool and meeting place. Would Hitler have done the things he did without inspiration from Wagner ? I can't say for certain. Would Wagner have been invited in to Hitler Reich ? Would he have gone along in the holocaust willingly ? Maybe, but he was dead. There was a special on the History Channel here in the US called Hitlers Women. One of the subjects was the daughter. They layed out quite clearly the ties between Hitler and the Wagner family. The connection was far deeper than "Hitler liked his music".

I conceeded that he was an anti-semite. But who on earth is not predjudiced in some way? If someone claims otherwise, then their sin is pride! To be honest with you, I don't condone anti-semitism, and I dislike it, but quite frankly I couldn't care less that Wagner was anti-semetic. I am tired of all the PC hysteria over anything to do with race. I am not worshipping him as a saint, a person without fault; his music is brilliant and that's what he should be remembered for.
His grandchildren were friendly with Hitler, and Hitler got to know quite a few members of the Wagner family, but you know a lot of German people were taken in by Hitlers charisma - we can't condemn 99% of the German population as evil.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
. I am tired of all the PC hysteria over anything to do with race...

Well putting race etc aside, from a personal perspective, based on what I've heard of him, I can't really understand the almost hysterical admiration of Wagner's music by his fans.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
The interesting thing about my love of Wagner is that paradoxically I am not a big fan of Romantic Music (my favourite is Baroque, and some Classical). I find it too drawn-out, too over-emphasised, too over orchestrated, too heavy, too intense, too introverted, to emotionally self-indulgent and too dreary. A lot of it I find quite boring. Wagner is all of the above (except the dreary and boring bit), and the ultimate Romantic, and yet I make an exception for him. Perhaps because he did it so well, that I can't help but be taken in by it. I admire the way in which he took a genre and perfected it, even if the genre itself it not really my fist choice.
I think what Wagner excells in is drama. His music is dramatically brilliant. That's why Hollywood soundtracks very often follow the Wagner style.
I also admire Wagner as a philosopher. Certainly, I don't agree with everything, and a lot of what he came up with is quite crack-pot. But he is an exceedingly interesting person, and deserves credit for comming up with so many interesting ideas. A colourful personality, certainly with a dark side, but he has the same charasmatic appeal as some controversial rock stars ... to me he is like a classical rock star.
It as an ambition of mine to go to Bayreuth.

BTW, I notice, Chaszz, that you post on the Bach-talk website. Go and have a look at my recent (first) contribution to that site and tell me what you think.

Yes, Wagner is like Mephistopheles, a fascinating, many-sided character with evil qualities who also happened to be a musicial genius. I, like you, enjoy his philosophic side, except that his way of expressing himself in prose is so long-winded and convoluted. But there is no other of my favorite artists to whom I can go and read so many comments on other artists; for instance, Wagner has interesting and relevant things to say about the painter Holbein; whereas I don't know if Beethoven or Bach even knew Holbein existed. Likewise quotes on Rembrandt, Raphael, Goethe, Shakespeare, etc., etc. Cosima and he made sure his every thought was preserved in print. Her diaries, while sometimes ugly in their various anti's, have a lot of these quotes, and they are often quite good and thought-provoking. For instance, he said several times that time and space are one, and whoever understands this can understand eternity. This is at least a quarter century before Einstein said that space and time were really combined in an entity called spacetime. Not that Wagner was any Einstein, or even a scientific person, but I think this was an insightful idea.

I am on the mailing list for Bayreuth and I have seven years to wait.

I did read your posting on the Bach site yesterday and liked it. I didn't answer only because I thought you might be annoyed with me for my replies to your attack on rap. I'm glad you're not. And by the way over the weekend in New York City there was a gun attack on one rap mogul's office by another rap star, and I had to say to myself, hmmm, what am I defending?

What you quoted from Berlioz speaking on Bach, on the Bach forum, would no doubt please Rod, who would agree with every word of it.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 22, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

What you quoted from Berlioz speaking on Bach, on the Bach forum, would no doubt please Rod, who would agree with every word of it.

Well, not so sure, I think it was Berlioz who described Handel's music as "all beer and pork". Not clever, especially considering his own output is beyond third rate.

PS Handel has the foresight to actually buy two Rembrandts.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, not so sure, I think it was Berlioz who described Handel's music as "all beer and pork". Not clever, especially considering his own output is beyond third rate.

PS Handel has the foresight to actually buy two Rembrandts.

I couldn't resist lifting Steppenwolf's Berlioz quote from the Bach forum for your apprecation:

When, it is recorded, Berlioz heard a Bach concerto for three claviers played by Chopin, Lizt, and Hiller, he commented: "It was heart-rending, I assure you, to see three such admirable talents, full of fire, brilliant in youthful vitality, united in a bundle to reproduce this ridiculous and stupid psalmody."

Maybe he just couldn't relate to Baroque music period.

Good for Handel. I don't think Rembrandt had been fully rediscovered yet by Handel's time, but am not sure. He was mostly forgotten for a good while after his death, then rediscovered like Bach later on. In any case, this is admirable to hear about Handel.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, not so sure, I think it was Berlioz who described Handel's music as "all beer and pork". Not clever, especially considering his own output is beyond third rate.

PS Handel has the foresight to actually buy two Rembrandts.

I think Berlioz was a remarkably original composer - listen to the March to the scaffold from the Symphonie Fantastique, that was written during Beethoven's lifetime - the opening of the last movement is straight out of the 20th century. His orchestral technique was superb and he was a great defendor of Beethoven at a time when Beethoven was not popular in France. He relates a story in his memoirs which he describes as typical when the director of fine arts enquired "What's his name, that German fellow? - that's it, Beethoven, he wasn't devoid of talent"!!! Incidentally it is Berlioz's bicentenary this year so I'm pleased he has been brought into the discussion.

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'Man know thyself'