Wagner

[SR]

Steppenwolf......

>>>but you know a lot of German people were taken in by Hitlers charisma - we can't condemn 99% of the German population as evil. <<<<

You're correct in not condemning the entire German people. I only condemn the ones that were willing accomplices. And the ones who were like thinkers to Hitler. I believe Wagner falls in that catagory. Hitler did not operate in a vacumn. He had supporters and people (Wagner amoung others) from whom he drew inspiration. The final stand in Berlin and the Holocaust both of which cost so many lives wer to Hitler "Goterdamerung" I don't condemn the general populace who voted for a man that promised to restore prosperity to their country. I don't condemn those who were unknowing, or at least unknowing until it was too late to stop.

BTW I don't consider being against anti semitism to be PC. I consider it to be proper human behavior.

I do not however believe that art should be condemned or endorsed based on politics of the artist. I don't care for Wagners operas because of his style of writing for the voice, and he didn't do much else.

Regards

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I think Berlioz was a remarkably original composer - listen to the March to the scaffold from the Symphonie Fantastique, that was written during Beethoven's lifetime - the opening of the last movement is straight out of the 20th century.

Well, I just go by what I hear Peter.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

I did read your posting on the Bach site yesterday and liked it. I didn't answer only because I thought you might be annoyed with me for my replies to your attack on rap. I'm glad you're not.

Regarding the "idiot" comment on the degenerate music thread. My writing style can be quite provocative and rhetorical - I certainly don't mean anything personal by it (that in that case, anyway). While I think some of the things you said defending rap were idiotic, I certainly don't think you are an idiot. I was merely annoyed (a friendly sort of annoyance) because I believe that someone like you, obviously an intelligent and cultured person who understands real music and real art, should know better.
Trust me, rap IS degenerate, and one day the world will wake up and realise, and if it doesn't signal the fall of Western civilisation it is at least an alarm bell warning of a serious social problem, and if Wagner or Beethoven or Bach were here they would agree with me!

Re. Wagner, does it really take years on a waiting list before you get to the Bayreuth Festival? I had better book up now then!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:

I think Berlioz was a remarkably original composer - listen to the March to the scaffold from the Symphonie Fantastique, that was written during Beethoven's lifetime - the opening of the last movement is straight out of the 20th century. His orchestral technique was superb and he was a great defendor of Beethoven at a time when Beethoven was not popular in France. He relates a story in his memoirs which he describes as typical when the director of fine arts enquired "What's his name, that German fellow? - that's it, Beethoven, he wasn't devoid of talent"!!! Incidentally it is Berlioz's bicentenary this year so I'm pleased he has been brought into the discussion.

Unlike many of the Romantic composers Berlioz was not attempting to copy Beethoven, but expanded his own resources because Beethoven had "opened his eyes" to the possibilities that exist. A choral Symphony? How about Lelio with monologue, arias, AND a chorus? Yes, Berlioz was highly original. For those who think his music is loud and brassy listen L'Enfance du Crist (I hope I didn't slaughter the spelling too bad, there).

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I just go by what I hear Peter.

Well then you can hardly have failed to have noticed that nothing remotely like the Symphonie fantastique (1831) existed before it. Nor can you have failed to notice the sheer novelty of the orchestral effects employed be Berlioz. Do you know the Queen Mab scherzo from Romeo and Juliet? - the effects are quite magical.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well then you can hardly have failed to have noticed that nothing remotely like the Symphonie fantastique (1831) existed before it. Nor can you have failed to notice the sheer novelty of the orchestral effects employed be Berlioz. Do you know the Queen Mab scherzo from Romeo and Juliet? - the effects are quite magical.

Well, the words 'brash' and 'unrefined' come to mind from what I've heard. This perhaps relates to Sorrano's comment above.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, the words 'brash' and 'unrefined' come to mind from what I've heard. This perhaps relates to Sorrano's comment above.

That is, too, what the critics said in Berlioz's lifetime. But then, don't forget that Beethoven's critics had similar things to say--I think of the 5th Symphony and some of the things said about it, how it was so incomprehensible and noisy. Try listening to L'Enfance du Crist. This is a very different side to Berlioz.

[Sorrano]

Did anyone catch the PBS recording of the final scenes from Gotterdamerung last night? I believe it was the NY Phil with Zubin Metha. It was quite enjoyable.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Did anyone catch the PBS recording of the final scenes from Gotterdamerung last night? I believe it was the NY Phil with Zubin Metha. It was quite enjoyable.

No, dammit, I was watching the Rolling Stones concert on HBO. But I must say they were pretty good.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
[B]

But then, don't forget that Beethoven's critics had similar things to say--I think of the 5th Symphony and some of the things said about it, how it was so incomprehensible and noisy.
B]

And how about what they said about Beethoven's 8th Symphony. "Ah, the master must truly be deaf' or words to that affect. That must have hurt Beethoven when he read the critique in the morning paper. Critics can be pretty harsh and hurtful.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Did anyone catch the PBS recording of the final scenes from Gotterdamerung last night? I believe it was the NY Phil with Zubin Metha. It was quite enjoyable.

No, it wasn't shown here in Arizona.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
No, dammit, I was watching the Rolling Stones concert on HBO. But I must say they were pretty good.

Chaszz, you missed that for The Rolling Stones?? Wow!! The Rolling Stones are pretty good in concert though I must say!!

Joy

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
Chaszz, you missed that for The Rolling Stones?? Wow!! The Rolling Stones are pretty good in concert though I must say!!

Joy

They were terrific last night. They make those 2 guitars sound so good together. Also they play their old songs with fervor so you can enjoy them, unlike Bob Dylan who twists them all up so they are unrecognizable.

The concert which Sorrano metioned was not on in New York either, and I can find no trace of it in the PBS online listings (!?)



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 24, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
[b] They were terrific last night. They make those 2 guitars sound so good together. Also they play their old songs with fervor so you can enjoy them, unlike Bob Dylan who twists them all up so they are unrecognizable.

/B]

I totally agree. They still have a lot of energy to give and are so good! What concert was it? From their recent tour? Where was it and when was the date?

/B][/QUOTE]

The concert which Sorrano metioned was not on in New York either, and I can find no trace of it in the PBS online listings (!?)

/B][/QUOTE]

I can't find in our PBS listings either!
Maybe it'll be on at another time.

Joy



[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 24, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

That is, too, what the critics said in Berlioz's lifetime. But then, don't forget that Beethoven's critics had similar things to say--I think of the 5th Symphony and some of the things said about it, how it was so incomprehensible and noisy. Try listening to L'Enfance du Crist. This is a very different side to Berlioz.

Well, Beethoven's brashness is always refined, whereas Berlioz's certainly isn't, it's just a mess! Apart from this I just think the music I've heard is poor in any case.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 25, 2003).]