Degenerate Music!

[Jin]

Originally posted by Peter:
It is beyond me how the word 'artist' and Eminem can be mentioned in the same breath. The fact remains that violent crimes are on the increase...

But isn't that more a result of there being more weapons available to the public? I mean, it's an old and not altogether airtight argument, but just like "guns don't kill people, people do," music doesn't turn people who are not inclined toward violence into maniacs.

Beethoven didn't approve of Mozart's operas on the grounds of 'immoral plots' - goodness knows what he would have made of today's rappers!

But isn't that the point? Beethoven considered them immoral, but we certainly don't. Or last we don't think they're so bad any more. And on that note, if we're on the topic of lyrics, ISN'T Mozart just as bad as some of the rap out there? I mean, take Il Catalogo e Questo; isn't the content just as bad as rap about promiscuity or mistreatment of women? It's just not so explicit, is all.

[Jin]

Plato argued that music was the most important aspect of the education of young people. If youth are taught to appreciate beautiful and harmonious music, they will become civilised members of society and their lives will be well ordered.

But Plato also believed in strict censorship of art/poetry to the point where it sounds totalitarian.

The rats who were subjected to the hard rock music started killing and eating each other, and they proved unable to navigate their way through even the simplest parts of the maze. However, the rats in the maze with classical music got on well together and navigated their way through complex mazes in record time.

I think experiments like that confuse cause and effect. Modern music has a different "sound" that gets more blood pumping than classical music. When people are in an excited state, they tend to do more rash, outrageous things. Both of those statements are true, but I don't think that means the music per se is degenerate because of this link.

I find musical merit in many rock bands, especially 'classic rock' like Led Zeplin and the Doors. But a lot of the more recent stuff - eg. heavy metal, rap, etc. certainly is degenerate, and does not bode well for the future of western civilisation.

My point is that people then thought Zeppelin was degenerate too. This business of "civilization is coming to an end" has been going on forever (case in point, the Egypt quote!). I don't feel that our culture's going downhill. People have always been leery of new things, and that has nothing to do with these new things being bad.

Rap 'music' is just incoherent drivel made by thugs for thugs, which celebrates all the barbaric attitudes that a civilised society is supposed to eradicate in its citizens by means of education. Eminem is no artist.

That's a little harsh, isn't it? I don't think rap is completely without merit. I mean, there's bad music in all genres, and I don't see why bad rap is any worse than bad folk. As for Eminem, I don't even think he's one of the worse rappers. I mean, his material isn't even that bad, cuz it's all been done before, but everyone pays attention to him cuz he's irreverent and clever. He's no genius, but he actually has a pretty good ear for how words sound, and his material isn't meant to be taken too seriously. For example, in one of his songs he says something like: "If you believe all the stuff in my songs...then I'ma kill YOU." The people who realize he's joshin' will get the joke, and it'll make the people who find him offensive even more incensed.

Each generation is now expected to outdo the older generation in rebelliousness, in thumbing their noses at tradition, morality and authority....What will the next generation do to shock the oldies in 20 years time, when the kids who now listen to Manson have grown up and had families? What will the next bad rocker do to outdo him? Human sacrifice on stage - Aztec style - can't be far off.

The way I see it, it's not that young people push boundaries because it's expected, but it's just what they're inclined to do. And I'm sure if you look at the views of most older adults who are now considered conservative, the views they held when they were young were considered radical too. I think that's how we make progress. I do, however, think you have a point about the escalation of these rebellious antics.

The shock and indignation caused by such notorious works as 'the piss Christ' was not incidental - it really was the whole point of their production. Beauty is no longer appreciated. The decadent art world applauds anything that is avant guarde, that breaks the rules and extends further and further into ugliness and disorder....Beethoven broke old rules in order to replace them with new (and hopefully better) ones. It was not just mindless rebellion for the sake of it, it was rebellion with a purpose.

Beauty -- surely we're allowed to redefine concepts and draw new boundaries. It's perfectly fine to dislike the results, but who's to say which rules are better?

I dunno. Maybe cause and effect again. Perhaps the people who are violent tend to be attracted to heavier music and rap. Which certainly isn't a glowing recommendation for the music, but it definitely isn't the same thing as saying the music itself contributed to violence or is a reflection of society.

[This message has been edited by Jin (edited January 13, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jin:
But isn't that more a result of there being more weapons available to the public? I mean, it's an old and not altogether airtight argument, but just like "guns don't kill people, people do," music doesn't turn people who are not inclined toward violence into maniacs.

Of course I'm not suggesting that everyone who listens to this stuff will turn out a violent brain damaged moron! What I am saying is that we are living in a more violent society and I don't think anything that promotes that is helpful do you? As for the lyrics of Mozart being as bad as rap (Mozart never wrote any lyrics) - nowhere does Mozart glorify violence or preach hatred - he exposes the evil in characters such as Don Giovani or Sarastro and good always triumphs.


------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Jin]

Originally posted by Peter:
Of course I'm not suggesting that everyone who listens to this stuff will turn out a violent brain damaged moron! What I am saying is that we are living in a more violent society and I don't think anything that promotes that is helpful do you?

No, I guess not, but that seems to be a problem with anything new. Some people 'use' it harmlessly and other people 'abuse' it. With rap it's just somewhat pronounced.

As for the lyrics of Mozart being as bad as rap (Mozart never wrote any lyrics)...

Oops. I meant the lyrics in Mozart.

...nowhere does Mozart glorify violence or preach hatred - he exposes the evil in characters such as Don Giovani or Sarastro and good always triumphs.

True, that's true. Nonetheless, it stands that B thought the plots were immoral and we don't anymore, no?

[Joy]

Just a note. They held the annual American Music Awards last night and Eminem won the most awards. He is indeed popular.

Joy

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
Just a note. They held the annual American Music Awards last night and Eminem won the most awards. He is indeed popular.

Joy

He also continues the classic pattern of the blacks creating a popular musical form and the white adapters coming in and profiting the most from it. This was true in jazz (Paul Whiteman, Benny Goodman), rock (Elvis Presley, the Beatles, etc.) and now in rap.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 14, 2003).]

[ann hathaway]

Must we endure the above mentioned nonentities, they belong to the culture of Death!. A savage, detrimental and corrupting effect on younger and vulnerable
generation.

It is so refreshing to see that steppenwolf is a well educated young gentleman. I am sure there must be more out there.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:


Must we endure the above mentioned nonentities, they belong to the culture of Death!. A savage, detrimental and corrupting effect on younger and vulnerable
generation.

It is so refreshing to see that steppenwolf is a well educated young gentleman. I am sure there must be more out there.

Some of us just see a cyclical pattern in this degeneracy and don't get too alarmed. Can you find a contemporary work with as much gore in it as Shakespeare's 'Macbeth?'

[ann hathaway]

Shakespeare hated lawlessness and mob rule, which only brings about anarchy, the breakdown of society.
Shakespeare, in Titus and Andronicus Highlights the destruction of Rome in virtue by mixing with Barbarians.
The mutilation and rape of lavinia, represented the destruction of Rome.

Macbeth contains allusions to the Gunpowder Plot which led to the trial of the lawless conspirators.
Towards the end Macbeth regresses into primitive terrors;
"
It will have blood they say; blood will have blood"


Shakespeare obviously a very conservative chap. highlighted the folly of mob rule, that only generates chaos.

[ann hathaway]

Correction!.

The Title of the above Shakespeare tradgedy is Titus Andronicus. Sorry, I am too much in a hurry sometimes. As now I am off to work.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Some of us just see a cyclical pattern in this degeneracy and don't get too alarmed. Can you find a contemporary work with as much gore in it as Shakespeare's 'Macbeth?'

It isn't the violence, immoralty etc itself, but how you present it - this modern rap actually preaches gun culture and drugs as a way of life which is a completely different thing. Many of today's violent films glorify violence which is not the same as portraying it.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[ann hathaway]

I agree with peters views, this is what I was trying to get at.

There is no question that Gansta rap and Death metal has arisen from a depraved sub-culture, what they preach in the form of music (or should I say noise pollution)
is a cult! They live and glorify what they believe in their own warped way, summoning up and spawning evil.

[ann hathaway]

To add to the sub-culture issue above, a quote from The Spanish Tragedy by Thomas Kydd;
"Oh life, No life, but a lively form of Death!"

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:


Shakespeare hated lawlessness and mob rule, which only brings about anarchy, the breakdown of society.
Shakespeare, in Titus and Andronicus Highlights the destruction of Rome in virtue by mixing with Barbarians.
The mutilation and rape of lavinia, represented the destruction of Rome.

Macbeth contains allusions to the Gunpowder Plot which led to the trial of the lawless conspirators.
Towards the end Macbeth regresses into primitive terrors;
"
It will have blood they say; blood will have blood"


Shakespeare obviously a very conservative chap. highlighted the folly of mob rule, that only generates chaos.

This is true, but there is so much violence in both plays that I think one might question whether some of it is not gratuitious. Shakespeare might have been throwing his groundlings some bones. There is even cannibalism in Titus Andronicus.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Some of us just see a cyclical pattern in this degeneracy and don't get too alarmed. Can you find a contemporary work with as much gore in it as Shakespeare's 'Macbeth?'

Shakespear was more interested in the consequences of our actions than in the violence. Violence is one of our natural tendencies, and I think, that when we give into those urges we reap what we sow and this is what is so interesting about Shakespear's plays. (Hamlet comes to mind here.) Much of the cinematic portrayal of violence has the apparent sole purpose of its glorification rather than to teach about consequences.