Degenerate Music!

[Steppenwolf]

Is much of modern music degenerate? If art reflects society, then what does 'gansta rap' tell us about Western civilisation at the end beggining of the 21st century? How did we go from Bach to Marilyn Manson? Can we blame Shoenberg for musical degeneracy?
There is an ancient Chinese legend that when the music of a civilisation becomes dissonant, loud and tempestuous then the state is in peril, and in decline. Music of a well ordered state is by contrast serene.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 09, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Is much of modern music degenerate? If art reflects society, then what does 'gansta rap' tell us about Western civilisation at the end beggining of the 21st century? How did we go from Bach to Marilyn Manson? Can we blame Shoenberg for musical degeneracy?
There is an ancient Chinese legend that when the music of a civilisation becomes dissonant, loud and tempestuous then the state is in peril, and in decline. Music of a well ordered state is by contrast serene.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 09, 2003).]

"The young are becoming decadent in every way."
- Egyptian hieroglyph inscription circa 4,300 B.C.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
Is much of modern music degenerate? If art reflects society, then what does 'gansta rap' tell us about Western civilisation at the end beggining of the 21st century? How did we go from Bach to Marilyn Manson? Can we blame Shoenberg for musical degeneracy?
There is an ancient Chinese legend that when the music of a civilisation becomes dissonant, loud and tempestuous then the state is in peril, and in decline. Music of a well ordered state is by contrast serene.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 09, 2003).]

I think this is a very interesting point - how we arrived at this situation I don't quite know, but it seems to me that much of today's pop music glorifies violence and drug abuse - when you look at the worsening crime situation there is obviously a link, but it is rather like the chicken and the egg - is the music a contributor or a reflection?

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
when you look at the worsening crime situation there is obviously a link, but it is rather like the chicken and the egg - is the music a contributor or a reflection?

Good point. I think it's a little of both. The music feeds off of what's happening in our world and the younger generation feeds off the music. (Like we used to in our younger days, however, granted, the music wasn't as bad as today especially lyrically, but our parents thought so)!!

Joy

[Jin]

What if it's neither? Haven't older generations always thought that the music of the youth was "degenerate"? I think it's just a result of people being able to say whatever they want now; I mean, there's obviously plenty of non-violent music too. I know people who listen to rap and heavy music, and all of them are friendly, kind people, so though I might not like all of it, I don't think this apparent degeneracy is a bad thing.

If no one minds the tangent, what does everyone think of Eminem? Does he exemplify all that's wrong about modern music, or is he a legitimate artist?

[Chris]

The former, I would say, but there are some worse than he.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jin:
What if it's neither? Haven't older generations always thought that the music of the youth was "degenerate"? I think it's just a result of people being able to say whatever they want now; I mean, there's obviously plenty of non-violent music too. I know people who listen to rap and heavy music, and all of them are friendly, kind people, so though I might not like all of it, I don't think this apparent degeneracy is a bad thing.

If no one minds the tangent, what does everyone think of Eminem? Does he exemplify all that's wrong about modern music, or is he a legitimate artist?

It is beyond me how the word 'artist' and Eminem can be mentioned in the same breath. The fact remains that violent crimes are on the increase - more teenagers are carrying weapons and this 'music' preaches violence - pity the kids don't listen to the lyrics from Beethoven's songs, then you would see a decrease in crime. Beethoven didn't approve of Mozart's operas on the grounds of 'immoral plots' - goodness knows what he would have made of today's rappers!

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Jin:
What if it's neither? Haven't older generations always thought that the music of the youth was "degenerate"? I think it's just a result of people being able to say whatever they want now; I mean, there's obviously plenty of non-violent music too. I know people who listen to rap and heavy music, and all of them are friendly, kind people, so though I might not like all of it, I don't think this apparent degeneracy is a bad thing.

If no one minds the tangent, what does everyone think of Eminem? Does he exemplify all that's wrong about modern music, or is he a legitimate artist?

I have never listened to Enimen,but I am curious as to what legitimate art might be.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Joy:
Good point. I think it's a little of both. The music feeds off of what's happening in our world and the younger generation feeds off the music. (Like we used to in our younger days, however, granted, the music wasn't as bad as today especially lyrically, but our parents thought so)!!

Joy

After having sung Henry Purcell tunes for many many years ,lyrics as bad as some of the poetry in this music could only be equaled by the junk that passes for poetry in some of todays popular songs.
Bad poetry is bad poetry in any century.

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
After having sung Henry Purcell tunes for many many years ,lyrics as bad as some of the poetry in this music could only be equaled by the junk that passes for poetry in some of todays popular songs.
Bad poetry is bad poetry in any century.

Absolutely, but I doubt the Purcell lyrics contained obscenities and incitement to murder and butcher people?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Dear me ,is this what millions of young people call music ,I got fired from a kitchen job once when with the meat cleaver I chopped off the plug of the ghetto blaster forcing a delicous silence in the kitchen free at last from the constant muck pouring forth from the infernal machine.I would need to have danger pay to listen to this crap everyday.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Dear me ,is this what millions of young people call music ,I got fired from a kitchen job once when with the meat cleaver I chopped off the plug of the ghetto blaster forcing a delicous silence in the kitchen free at last from the constant muck pouring forth from the infernal machine.I would need to have danger pay to listen to this crap everyday.

Rap is new, but heavy metal has been with us for two generations already. My three children listened to it ad nauseum in their youth, have all turned out to be fine people and productive members of society, and all listen to classical music today, along with alternative rock. When they were teens listening to Ozzie, Metallica and Megadeath, I shuddered for the future of civilization.

[Steppenwolf]

I can assure you that I am not what you would call a reactionary moral conservative. Far from it. In many ways I am quite liberal. Nor am I old (I am 22).
But when it comes to the conservative theory of music, I have a horrible feeling there may be some truth.
In ancient China, one of the greatest civilisations of the ancient world, music was accorded a prominent and sacred place in the life of society. It was held that if music flourished, all was well with society, culture and the state. But if music degenerated, that was held to be a sure sign of doom and cultural decline. The prophets and wise men told horrific stories of the heaven-offending, diabolical so-called 'music of decline'. Certain keys and dissonant harmonic combinations were even banned. No sooner had these wicked notes been struck in the days of old, so it was said, than the sky darkened, the walls trembled and state and sovereign went to their doom. Music of a prosperous and well ordered civilisation was said to be serene, but the music of a civilisation in decline was the opposite to serene. If music is tempestuous and fierce, then the people grumble, the government is perverted and life is deranged.
The ancient Greek philosophers had a similar opinion. Plato argued that music was the most important aspect of the education of young people. If youth are taught to appreciate beautiful and harmonious music, they will become civilised members of society and their lives will be well ordered. In that way proper musical education secures the prosperity of a civilisation.
Modern day scientific experiments have suggested that there may be some truth in Plato's ideas. One experiment involed two groups of rats living in a maze. To one group heavy metal music was played, to the other, classical. The rats who were subjected to the hard rock music started killing and eating each other, and they proved unable to navigate their way through even the simplest parts of the maze. However, the rats in the maze with classical music got on well together and navigated their way through complex mazes in record time.
Two identical shops in the same area were the subject of another experiment. In one was played classical, in the other, rock. The rock music shop was vandalised and robbed. The shop with the classical music had no trouble and sales increased!
I don't dismiss all modern music (by modern I mean all popular styles post 1950s). Some of it is just a modern day equivalent of folk music of previous eras. I find musical merit in many rock bands, especially 'classic rock' like Led Zeplin and the Doors. But a lot of the more recent stuff - eg. heavy metal, rap, etc. certainly is degenerate, and does not bode well for the future of western civilisation. If you could visit Beethoven with the help of a time machine, and you told him that one day in the future music would consist of loud, disonant, tempestuous noise - with no melody or harmony - just electric screeching and repetative drum beats - accompanied by incoherent screaming of obsenities, he would think that the people of the future were all madmen, and that the lunatics had escaped from their asylum and taken over the world!
What have we come to? Rap 'music' is just incoherent drivel made by thugs for thugs, which celebrates all the barbaric attitudes that a civilised society is supposed to eradicate in its citizens by means of education. Eminem is no artist. But he does have an amazing talent. An amazing talent for duping thousands of people around the world to go and purchase his aural diaroeah.
Part of the problem is that youth culture (which is arguably the most influencial part of modern culture in general) is fixated on a adolescent fetish for rebellion. Each generation is now expected to outdo the older generation in rebelliousness, in thumbing their noses at tradition, morality and authority. Back in the 50s the old fogies were shocked at Elvis swaying his hips. After a while people got used to it, so the next generation of rockers had to do something more shocking to outdo the precedent. So the Beatles grew long hair, and then after a while people got used to that so Jimi Hendrix came up with the idea of smashing up his guitar and burning it on stage. But when teenagers who listened to Jimi Hendrix and Jefferson Airplane grew up, what could the next generation do to shock their parents? Obviously they would have to go further and do something even more outrageous. So next we had all the crazy excesses of Heavy Metal, Ozzy Osborne biting heads off bats, satanic lyrics, etc.. Then what? Well, now we have Marilyn Manson masturbating over Bibles and copulating with goats on stage (if you can believe the stories). What next? What will the next generation do to shock the oldies in 20 years time, when the kids who now listen to Manson have grown up and had families? What will the next bad rocker do to outdo him? Human sacrifice on stage - Aztec style - can't be far off.
Do you realise that there are songs now with lyrics consisting of virtually nothing but the 'f' word repeated over and over again? There is no point responding to this with moral indignation. It's simply stupid. The same sort of idiocy has long infected the so-called high-brow art world, where pretensious psuedo-intellectual morons pretend to appreciate the non-existent artistic merit in literal piles of junk. The shock and indignation caused by such notorious works as 'the piss Christ' was not incidental - it really was the whole point of their production. Beauty is no longer appreciated. The decadent art world applauds anything that is avant guarde, that breaks the rules and extends further and further into ugliness and disorder.
In an attempt to convert young people to classical music, some misguided individuals have emphasised that Beethoven was, in his day, a radical and revolutionary in his work, breaking the old rules. It is an attempt to recast him in the mold of a sort of classical equivalent of a rebellious, hip rock star. But this approach missing the point completely. Beethoven broke old rules in order to replace them with new (and hopefully better) ones. It was not just mindless rebellion for the sake of it, it was rebellion with a purpose. Wagner disguarded the old conventions of music to explore new ideas, and his goal was not to shock people and be a rebel but to improve music and add to it. But the modern approach is totally negative and destructive.
I believe art is a reflection of society and so the state of modern 'art' and culture is very troubling. Of course, as a young person myself, I don't like to play the role of a reactionary old bore all the time, and I feel like the little boy in 'The Emperor's New Clothes' in expressing these opinions. I indulge in the clubing scene, where the 'music' is just loud repetative rythm that is best understood under the intoxication of ecstacy or ampetamines, and I do enjoy it occasionally. But I can't help sometimes feeling that we are all making merry and dancing on the Titanic.


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 13, 2003).]

[Joy]

And speaking of what the difference between classical music and rock music does for the nervous system. Did you hear the one about the experiment some scientists did recently? Apparently they put some cows in a barn and played nothing but Beethoven music then for the other half of the cows they played nothing but rock music. Well, you guessed it, the cows that were subjected to the Beethoven's music produced far more milk than the cows listening to rock. That just goes to show you how classical music relaxes you more and makes you more productive. Also that those scientists must have really had a lot of time on their hands.

Joy

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf. I indulge in the clubing scene, where the 'music' is just loud repetative rythm that is best understood under the intoxication of ecstacy or ampetamines, and I do enjoy it occasionally. But I can't help sometimes feeling that we are all making merry and dancing on the Titanic.


[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited January 13, 2003).][/B]

I do hope that this statement does not mean that you are indulging in unidentified drug use,I am not your mother but I am old enough to be and I strongly advise you against taking these recreational drugs.My stepson went to a party one night when he was 17 and took drugs that have left him what can only be described as a violent vegetable who will be institutionalized for the rest of his sad and sorry existance.It took only one dose to blow the circuits in his brain.Before this night he was a happy, bright promising young lad.This has destroyed his family who will for ever grieve his loss.