Beethoven's lawsuits

[spaceray]

Beethoven had joint guardianship of his nephew Carl with the young mans mother ,what were these lawsuits about do I understand correctly she made an attempt to extort money from the famous musician and composer.Or was it strictly a "morality"issue ie.the mother was of loose character and therefor was not fit to raise her son?

[Peter]

From the beginning Beethoven had been opposed to the marriage of his brother Carl and Johanna Reiss in 1806. Carl was obviously the eternal optomist when shortly before his death he appointed his wife and Beethoven as co-guardians of their son Karl so began nearly five years of lawsuits as Beethoven sort sole custody and did everthing in his power to blacken the probably already murky name of Johanna. However the real victim of all this was Karl himself and the result was a botched suicide attempt in 1826. It is intersting that despite the hostility between Beethoven and Johanna, years later (after he had finally won custody of the boy) his bitter feelings towards her seemed to lessen and he even offered to help her financially.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Karl attempted suicide because of the custody suits? Johanna did not then try to exploit Beethoven?

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Karl attempted suicide because of the custody suits? Johanna did not then try to exploit Beethoven?

Not directly - he attempted suicide 6 years later - he was unhappy with the situation and let's face it, it can't have been easy living with uncle Beethoven!

Quite frankly I think it was Johanna who was exploited by having her son taken away from her against the wishes of her husband and the boy - Beethoven would have done better to honour his brother's wishes and save himself all the heartache his actions resulted in for everyone concerned.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 12, 2003).]

[ann hathaway]

Right for the start Beethoven outwardly showed signs of contempt for Johanna and wrote her off as a woman of ill repute.
During the custody Lawsuit Johanna made claim that Beethoven had previously been in love with her, of course Ludwig ridiculed this suggestion. Although it is very interesting to note that Solomon proposed that "Beethovens aggression towards Johanna was a reaction-formation against his deep attachment to her".

Ludwig felt very uncomfortable in the company of this attractive woman with a lively exrtoverted, saucy personality.
I do not think Beethoven lusted after married women, especially his brothers wife!

He used to refer to her as "Queen of the night".

Ludwig genuinely loved and was concerned for his then 9 year old nephews education and upbringing. It seems he became obsessed by the belief that he was obligated to rescue his nephew from the evil influence of his mother.

Beethoven eventually won the custody dispute.
It should have been apparent to the courts that this exraordinary musical genius, an eccentric batchelor without a stable home, as he did not stay in any one place for very long and frequently changed servants as he thought they were trying to poison him.
It may be fair to say that Ludwig himself was inexperienced in practical aspects of living.

The whole situation could not have been favourable for young Carl being unecessarily removed from his mother. A young child needs a stable home, and not being moved from pillar to post.
Though good tutors were chosen for him by Uncle Ludwig.
I feel Beethoven could still have provided for his nephews education without disrupting his home life. Such as it was.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:
Right for the start Beethoven outwardly showed signs of contempt for Johanna and wrote her off as a woman of ill repute.
During the custody Lawsuit Johanna made claim that Beethoven had previously been in love with her, of course Ludwig ridiculed this suggestion. Although it is very interesting to note that Solomon proposed that "Beethovens aggression towards Johanna was a reaction-formation against his deep attachment to her".

Ludwig felt very uncomfortable in the company of this attractive woman with a lively exrtoverted, saucy personality.
I do not think Beethoven lusted after married women, especially his brothers wife!

He used to refer to her as "Queen of the night".

Ludwig genuinely loved and was concerned for his then 9 year old nephews education and upbringing. It seems he became obsessed by the belief that he was obligated to rescue his nephew from the evil influence of his mother.

Beethoven eventually won the custody dispute.
.

Anne,
I felt sort of skeptical of Solomon's interpretation of the relationship between B and Johanna. When B arrived unannounced at Caspar Carl's house he found them living together "in sin" and immediately his morality took ovr and he condemned them, and also filed a lawsuit against them. They thwarted it by getting married before a judgement could be rendered, and I think this is what set him off down that notorious road of lawsuits. Soloman was quite adamant about there being a hidden relationship there, but without direct evidence really, he made some inferences. If I am not mistaken (I haven't seen it for a few years) the plot of "Immortal Beloved" cast Johanna in that role. I have never seen any evidence that this was in fact true, there are a lot of loose ends and the writer's took licence to make it turn out that way. There can be no doubt though that this lifestyle was wrong for the lad, as his suicide attempt showed. Another aspect of that movie was that it depicted B as a cruel teacher who was very disappointed that Karl had little talent on the piano, and tied it back to the treatment he got from his own father who wanted him to be the next Mozart. very small amount of that may be true, given human nature, but I have my doubts there too. I don't guess we'll ever know the whole truth unless new evidence comes to light at this late date.
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
...If I am not mistaken (I haven't seen it for a few years) the plot of "Immortal Beloved" cast Johanna in that role. I have never seen any evidence that this was in fact true, there are a lot of loose ends and the writer's took licence to make it turn out that way. There can be no doubt though that this lifestyle was wrong for the lad, as his suicide attempt showed. Another aspect of that movie was that it depicted B as a cruel teacher who was very disappointed that Karl had little talent on the piano, and tied it back to the treatment he got from his own father who wanted him to be the next Mozart...

It is true the Immortal Bloved movie plot was heavily influenced by Solomon's most unlikely hypothesis (B's supposed relationship with Johanna).

I can't recall an account of Beethoven actually beating Karl or any other of his students whilst they were at the piano.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 13, 2003).]

[Joy]

It would be interesting to see what the courts would do now in the present time in a situation like this. I doubt if the uncle would get custody today knowing the child would be subjected to several moves, etc. However, maybe by being a famous composer he had some influence on the courts. Maybe things haven't changed that much after all. It's a wonder Carl grew up to be 'normal', having a job, getting married and having five children.

Joy

[spaceray]

I have been thinking about renting "Imortal Beloved"ever since I stumbled on this forum but I do not care for Hollywood movies and really disliked the Mozart movie.So is it worth watching?

[ann hathaway]

I am sure Beethoven thought he was doing his utmost for young Karl, and the love he had for him was reciprocated when we read that Karl frequently visited Uncle Ludwig whislt he was ill. I think Karl departed for military service on the January of 1827 when B. was confined to bed with dropsy.
I find it too distressing to read how Ludwig suffered before he departed this life . I know he has gone to a better one.

For all his faults, I love him, and for his
eccentricities I love him even more.

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I have been thinking about renting "Imortal Beloved"ever since I stumbled on this forum but I do not care for Hollywood movies and really disliked the Mozart movie.So is it worth watching?

Not in my opinion!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:
I am sure Beethoven thought he was doing his utmost for young Karl, and the love he had for him was reciprocated when we read that Karl frequently visited Uncle Ludwig whislt he was ill.
For all his faults, I love him, and for his
eccentricities I love him even more.

I agree - I'm sure Beethoven did what he thought was best, but I suspect he wasn't being honest with himself as regards his motives - he obviously wanted a son of his own and Karl fulfilled that role - Johanna he probably saw as a rival for the boy's affections.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:
I am sure Beethoven thought he was doing his utmost for young Karl, and the love he had for him was reciprocated when we read that Karl frequently visited Uncle Ludwig whislt he was ill. I think Karl departed for military service on the January of 1827 when B. was confined to bed with dropsy.
I find it too distressing to read how Ludwig suffered before he departed this life . I know he has gone to a better one.

For all his faults, I love him, and for his
eccentricities I love him even more.

Yes all things considered, his good points far outway the not so good, one can't help but like the chap. This comes across in his music I believe.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I have been thinking about renting "Imortal Beloved"ever since I stumbled on this forum but I do not care for Hollywood movies and really disliked the Mozart movie.So is it worth watching?

Don't waste your time unless you are sure you can differentiate the false bits from the actual facts of which there are not that many. There's a few parts that are good and the music is great.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:
I am sure Beethoven thought he was doing his utmost for young Karl, and the love he had for him was reciprocated when we read that Karl frequently visited Uncle Ludwig whislt he was ill. I think Karl departed for military service on the January of 1827 when B. was confined to bed with dropsy.
I find it too distressing to read how Ludwig suffered before he departed this life . I know he has gone to a better one.

For all his faults, I love him, and for his
eccentricities I love him even more.

I agree and don't forget this was a different time and disciplining children was done differently than today to a certain degree anyway generally speaking. Beethoven probably thought he was doing the best thing wanting him to follow in his footsteps so to speak. Karl just had different ideas for his future. We probably don't know all the facts anyway.

Joy